Sony NEX-VG10 AVCHD E-Mount Lens Camcorder

Paulo Teixeira · July 14th, 2010, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

It's simply a matter of unrealistic expectations. This is a *consumer* product.

Knowing the history of the Sony lines, there's no reason not to assume that
there could be a pro-oriented variant following shortly after this one. Think
VX2000 vs. PD150, FX1 vs. Z1, AX2000 vs. NX5, etc.

I figure that they may eventually release a pro model as well but the lower model shouldn't have to be that less featured all the time especially if Canon or Panasonic decides to release their own consumer versions with the extra recording modes that people want. It still seams much better to handle than the new Panasonic AF100.

Casey Krugman · July 14th, 2010, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Koehler

This tells me Sony has an underwater housing ready to go and I bet it connects to the camera the exact same way as the HDR-CX550, etc. do. All of which also have an imbedded LANC interface.

Those shots of the fish do not prove that they have an underwater housing ready... It proves he was in a zoo with a fish tank. Also, the lanc interface may work, but in that menu, the menu system was so wildly different, I honestly doubt that i would work without MAJOR re-engineering. My guess is it's an expanded version of their DSLR remotes if at all.

Bill Koehler · July 14th, 2010, 05:33 PM

In going back over the posts, it is obvious that some were offended by me. For that I wish to apologise. That was certainly not my intent. I am simply mostly confused by others expectations. And with that, I think it is time for me to be quiet for a while.

Sincerely,
Bill Koehler

David Heath · July 14th, 2010, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Koehler

This tells me Sony has an underwater housing ready to go ......

Whether they do or they don't, this will make a superb camera for underwater use. For that, it's of most use with a wide angle, fairly short zoom range, fast lens which should be reasonably small in itself. Hopefully it will have good sensitivity and coupled with the size of the camera, it should make for an excellent package.

For anyone who hasn't thought about it, if you want a camera and housing to be fairly neutrally bouyant in water, the weight on land must be directly proportional to the package volume. Hence a lightweight, but large camera in housing is useless - you'd have to weight it to get the bouyancy right.

For this use in particular, a camera which will do good quality video AND stills is also desirable.

I was thinking of getting a 550D mainly for underwater use - this is making me think again.

Dave Blackhurst · July 14th, 2010, 05:37 PM

I'd expect the zoom would be via the lens ring, ala any other SLR type camera, based on the lineage of the NEX being an offshoot from the Alpha (and in fact are still under the Alpha flag). So a LANC with zoom might well be superfluous... these E lenses are effectively "new" designs evolved from SLR type form and function, but with optimizations for video use...

Think platypus here, this new "toy" isn't quite an SLR or a video camera per se, but a new animal that will be a bit "different" and perhaps confusing until one plays with it a bit - right now I'm chewing on the implications myself of a 14.6Mpixel still camera that uses some Alpha components/accessories, but shoots 24Mbps video TOO, and presumably will use some Sony components/accessories from the video side of the family. The one question I have is which side (if either) will be compromised - every test I've run with a still cam that shoots video, video is "OK", but shows artifacts, and for video cams that shoot stills, the stills are soft... One camera that does it all (or perhaps a "camera system", of bodies and lenses?) would be nice, resulting in less equipment to drag around.

I'd hope the lux rating is a misprint, as it would represent a horrible step backward for this to have far worse low light capability than say the CX550V, which handles low light like a champ (EXMOR R). Would kill any interest for me very quickly if that's a "real" number.

I wouldn't worry about the 60i that much, I know "30p and 24p" are the mantra, but not everyone cares for the stutter that comes with slower frame rates - I'd rather see 60p or overcranking... but anyway...

Chris Hurd · July 14th, 2010, 05:38 PM

I think the only people "offended" by your remarks Bill are those with unrealistic expectations.

Hopefully we have firmly established that this camcorder is a *consumer* product.

Let's proceed by keeping that concept firmly in mind and
also by keeping delicate sensibilities in check. Thanks all,

Dave Blackhurst · July 14th, 2010, 06:27 PM

At the $2k price point, it's definitely "high end" consumer, but the lines get blurry, and it's only going to get worse...

With many of the "consumer" cameras being very capable of full HD images and some with manual controls to varying degrees, it's not so much the camera makes the "pro", but the "pro" making the camera - each new "tool" has it's own set of possibilities, the fact this is the first interchangeable lens video camera at this price point is enough in and of itself to make the product unique and interesting... what else it can or can't do will have to wait for some production units to get into hands that can play with them!

On that "lux" issue, reviewing the specs page on sonystyle I noticed that the rating is with the stock 18-200 lens, which is pretty slow by any measure (f3.5-6.3, I've got the "A" version of this lens, and yep, it's not great in low light). Even the CX550V is f1.8 wide open and closes to about that 3.5 IIRC in full zoom, so you're talking a couple stops loss before you even get to the sensor end of the equation... Now if you could put an adapter on it and mount a nice f1.2 or 1.4 lens, I'd expect a different story.

I'll admit to being puzzled by the entire NEX concept when the 3/5 hit the streets, and this one will have me scratching my head for a while too. I've been expecting this melding of photo and video and playing with various "hybrid" cameras in expectation, and the one thing I notice is that this new camera has all of the things coming from the photo side of the bloodline (HDR, Anti motion blur, Twilight mode, high burst rate), but in a video camera oriented platform. Again, I'm reminded of a platypus - it looks kinda like a duck, walks a bit like a duck, but it's not a duck... no wonder it's a tough one to wrap one's head around!

I have a tough time seeing "soccer mom Suzy" or "Uncle Bob cam" being able to make sense of this, so it sort of rises above the "consumer" realm, yet it's obviously not in a "pro" package (although the handle was a nice touch <wink>).

Chris Barcellos · July 14th, 2010, 06:32 PM

I can remember when I bought my VX2000 and my FX1 that they were called consumer cameras too. They were high end consumers cameras that we adapted as best we could to our indie film style with XLR adapters and extenders, etc., etc.

Graham Hickling · July 14th, 2010, 07:28 PM

Quote: I know "30p and 24p" are the mantra, but not everyone cares for the stutter that comes with slower frame rates - I'd rather see 60p or overcranking.

For me, at least, the mantra is simply "Just say no to freakin' interlace!!". I love the 720P60 on my $1800 HMC40.

John Wiley · July 14th, 2010, 09:22 PM

Dave, I agree with you that the Lux rating is being severely affected by the kit lens. Putting a nice, wide-aperture prime on their would be a whole different story.

It's like when the GH1 was released - one site did their review with the f/4 kit lens and then said it was a terrible camera for use in lowlight, without mentioning the fact that a f/1.7 or f/1.4 would make a huge improvement.

Dan Brockett · July 14th, 2010, 11:46 PM

Sony Australia released this interesting demo/promo YouTube - Sony unveils hybrid Handycam camcorder

Dan

Thomas Richter · July 15th, 2010, 02:23 AM

One thing that confuses me in the discussion is that people say it is interlaced. On dpreview they state: "*Image Sensor Captured at 30p (29.97p), Recorded in AVCHD 60i (59.94i) format" in the specs.

To me, that sounds like 30p in a 60i wrapper. A stupid detour and potentially a loss of resolution (stronger filtering to prevent interline flicker), but still comparatively easy to remove in post. Or did I miss something here?

In my opinion, one of the biggest chance they missed was to put in sensor based image stabilisation like in their top-range still cams. That would have been amazing - using adapted glass (like FD lenses) with a body-based OIS.

Tim Polster · July 15th, 2010, 08:00 AM

Maybe they are using this release to get market feedback about what to put on the "pro" version.

This type of camera design is a can of worms. Discussion about the AF-100 on another forum have been pretty heated regarding the need for "video" features like motor driven servo lenses as opposed to a "cine" design. The cine design is a lot easier, here is your body, there you go. But I suspect they want the sales from the video crowd as well. And lets be honest, outisde of controlled lighting situations, how many want to try to film using manual iris, focus and Zoom? Or use a prime lens to shoot an outdoor TV show or event?...

These types of cameras might offer a great look, but we still have to use them and if they do not offer the functionality to get the shots then they will just be a novelty for many.

I do not get the 60i thing in this day and age on a $2,000 camera. HD is progressive in my mind. SD had to be progressive due to the delivery method. HD is not bound by interlaced delivery. Just seems like holding on to the past when the industry has moved on. Besides, a cine style camera outputting an interlaced signal is a clash of two worlds in my mind.

Jason Lowe · July 15th, 2010, 11:56 AM

Looking at the B&H preorder page, it says the mount uses both the E mount and the A mount (Minolta), but the Sony Style spec page only lists the E mount. Guess we'll have to wait till review sites get one in their hands.

Edit:

Nevermind. Buried in another section of the Sony page is says:

Lens Compatibility : Sony E-mount lens, (A-mount lenses when used with LA-EA1 lens adaptor)

Joe Carney · July 15th, 2010, 12:05 PM

If it's truly 30p wrapped in 60i, then there are plenty of tools to convert to true 30p without loss of resolution. Sony converts it's 24p to 60i via it''s HDSDI output on the EX series. Plenty of software around to convert it back to full resolution 24p. I'm sure NeoScene will have no problem.

But for instant playback on both older and newer HDTVs, 60i is a good option. Let's wait for some tests.

July 14th, 2010, 05:38 PM	#51
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	I think the only people "offended" by your remarks Bill are those with unrealistic expectations. Hopefully we have firmly established that this camcorder is a consumer product. Let's proceed by keeping that concept firmly in mind and also by keeping delicate sensibilities in check. Thanks all, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 14th, 2010, 06:32 PM	#53
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	I can remember when I bought my VX2000 and my FX1 that they were called consumer cameras too. They were high end consumers cameras that we adapted as best we could to our indie film style with XLR adapters and extenders, etc., etc. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

July 14th, 2010, 07:28 PM	#54
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Quote: I know "30p and 24p" are the mantra, but not everyone cares for the stutter that comes with slower frame rates - I'd rather see 60p or overcranking. For me, at least, the mantra is simply "Just say no to freakin' interlace!!". I love the 720P60 on my $1800 HMC40. Last edited by Graham Hickling; July 14th, 2010 at 09:32 PM.

July 15th, 2010, 12:05 PM	#60
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	If it's truly 30p wrapped in 60i, then there are plenty of tools to convert to true 30p without loss of resolution. Sony converts it's 24p to 60i via it''s HDSDI output on the EX series. Plenty of software around to convert it back to full resolution 24p. I'm sure NeoScene will have no problem. But for instant playback on both older and newer HDTVs, 60i is a good option. Let's wait for some tests. __________________ Boycott Guinness, bring back the pint!!!

July 14th, 2010, 05:33 PM	#48
Bill Koehler Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Alpharetta, Georgia, USA Posts: 760	In going back over the posts, it is obvious that some were offended by me. For that I wish to apologise. That was certainly not my intent. I am simply mostly confused by others expectations. And with that, I think it is time for me to be quiet for a while. Sincerely, Bill Koehler

July 14th, 2010, 05:37 PM	#50
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	I'd expect the zoom would be via the lens ring, ala any other SLR type camera, based on the lineage of the NEX being an offshoot from the Alpha (and in fact are still under the Alpha flag). So a LANC with zoom might well be superfluous... these E lenses are effectively "new" designs evolved from SLR type form and function, but with optimizations for video use... Think platypus here, this new "toy" isn't quite an SLR or a video camera per se, but a new animal that will be a bit "different" and perhaps confusing until one plays with it a bit - right now I'm chewing on the implications myself of a 14.6Mpixel still camera that uses some Alpha components/accessories, but shoots 24Mbps video TOO, and presumably will use some Sony components/accessories from the video side of the family. The one question I have is which side (if either) will be compromised - every test I've run with a still cam that shoots video, video is "OK", but shows artifacts, and for video cams that shoot stills, the stills are soft... One camera that does it all (or perhaps a "camera system", of bodies and lenses?) would be nice, resulting in less equipment to drag around. I'd hope the lux rating is a misprint, as it would represent a horrible step backward for this to have far worse low light capability than say the CX550V, which handles low light like a champ (EXMOR R). Would kill any interest for me very quickly if that's a "real" number. I wouldn't worry about the 60i that much, I know "30p and 24p" are the mantra, but not everyone cares for the stutter that comes with slower frame rates - I'd rather see 60p or overcranking... but anyway...

July 14th, 2010, 06:27 PM	#52
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	At the $2k price point, it's definitely "high end" consumer, but the lines get blurry, and it's only going to get worse... With many of the "consumer" cameras being very capable of full HD images and some with manual controls to varying degrees, it's not so much the camera makes the "pro", but the "pro" making the camera - each new "tool" has it's own set of possibilities, the fact this is the first interchangeable lens video camera at this price point is enough in and of itself to make the product unique and interesting... what else it can or can't do will have to wait for some production units to get into hands that can play with them! On that "lux" issue, reviewing the specs page on sonystyle I noticed that the rating is with the stock 18-200 lens, which is pretty slow by any measure (f3.5-6.3, I've got the "A" version of this lens, and yep, it's not great in low light). Even the CX550V is f1.8 wide open and closes to about that 3.5 IIRC in full zoom, so you're talking a couple stops loss before you even get to the sensor end of the equation... Now if you could put an adapter on it and mount a nice f1.2 or 1.4 lens, I'd expect a different story. I'll admit to being puzzled by the entire NEX concept when the 3/5 hit the streets, and this one will have me scratching my head for a while too. I've been expecting this melding of photo and video and playing with various "hybrid" cameras in expectation, and the one thing I notice is that this new camera has all of the things coming from the photo side of the bloodline (HDR, Anti motion blur, Twilight mode, high burst rate), but in a video camera oriented platform. Again, I'm reminded of a platypus - it looks kinda like a duck, walks a bit like a duck, but it's not a duck... no wonder it's a tough one to wrap one's head around! I have a tough time seeing "soccer mom Suzy" or "Uncle Bob cam" being able to make sense of this, so it sort of rises above the "consumer" realm, yet it's obviously not in a "pro" package (although the handle was a nice touch <wink>).

July 14th, 2010, 09:22 PM	#55
John Wiley Trustee Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Byron Bay, Australia Posts: 1,155	Dave, I agree with you that the Lux rating is being severely affected by the kit lens. Putting a nice, wide-aperture prime on their would be a whole different story. It's like when the GH1 was released - one site did their review with the f/4 kit lens and then said it was a terrible camera for use in lowlight, without mentioning the fact that a f/1.7 or f/1.4 would make a huge improvement.

July 14th, 2010, 11:46 PM	#56
Dan Brockett Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 2,109	Sony Australia released this interesting demo/promo YouTube - Sony unveils hybrid Handycam camcorder Dan

July 15th, 2010, 02:23 AM	#57
Thomas Richter Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Frankfurt, Germany Posts: 181	One thing that confuses me in the discussion is that people say it is interlaced. On dpreview they state: "*Image Sensor Captured at 30p (29.97p), Recorded in AVCHD 60i (59.94i) format" in the specs. To me, that sounds like 30p in a 60i wrapper. A stupid detour and potentially a loss of resolution (stronger filtering to prevent interline flicker), but still comparatively easy to remove in post. Or did I miss something here? In my opinion, one of the biggest chance they missed was to put in sensor based image stabilisation like in their top-range still cams. That would have been amazing - using adapted glass (like FD lenses) with a body-based OIS.

July 15th, 2010, 08:00 AM	#58
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Maybe they are using this release to get market feedback about what to put on the "pro" version. This type of camera design is a can of worms. Discussion about the AF-100 on another forum have been pretty heated regarding the need for "video" features like motor driven servo lenses as opposed to a "cine" design. The cine design is a lot easier, here is your body, there you go. But I suspect they want the sales from the video crowd as well. And lets be honest, outisde of controlled lighting situations, how many want to try to film using manual iris, focus and Zoom? Or use a prime lens to shoot an outdoor TV show or event?... These types of cameras might offer a great look, but we still have to use them and if they do not offer the functionality to get the shots then they will just be a novelty for many. I do not get the 60i thing in this day and age on a $2,000 camera. HD is progressive in my mind. SD had to be progressive due to the delivery method. HD is not bound by interlaced delivery. Just seems like holding on to the past when the industry has moved on. Besides, a cine style camera outputting an interlaced signal is a clash of two worlds in my mind.

July 15th, 2010, 11:56 AM	#59
Jason Lowe Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Smithfield, Pennsylvania Posts: 226	Looking at the B&H preorder page, it says the mount uses both the E mount and the A mount (Minolta), but the Sony Style spec page only lists the E mount. Guess we'll have to wait till review sites get one in their hands. Edit: Nevermind. Buried in another section of the Sony page is says: Lens Compatibility : Sony E-mount lens, (A-mount lenses when used with LA-EA1 lens adaptor)