Sony NEX-VG10 AVCHD E-Mount Lens Camcorder

Henry Olonga · October 25th, 2010, 04:47 PM

Hi Robert - does the VG10 output clean HDMI out of interest? By that I mean without any overlays and uncompressed? Any way of tersting for us. Sorry if this has been asked

Robert Young · October 25th, 2010, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Olonga

Hi Robert - does the VG10 output clean HDMI out of interest? By that I mean without any overlays and uncompressed? Any way of tersting for us. Sorry if this has been asked

I believe that it does.
I know that people are reporting that it works with the NanoFlash recorder.
However, a big problem for shooting (with the current firmware, anyway) is that with HDMI out activated, you have no image display on camera- either VF or LCD. You must use a monitor.
A big drawback :(

Charlie Webster · October 25th, 2010, 08:19 PM

So.....what have we here is the gorgeous GF, wild in bed, stunning, but real moody syndrome.

Steve Mullen · October 25th, 2010, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Webster

PS: the low light sure looks good here:

Dolls - NEX VG10 low light test - Sony NEX-VG10 User Group on Vimeo

however check the last few seconds of this clip

Nex-VG10 moire reduction and 50/1.4 ND tests on Vimeo

wow. that's a fast lens. I see what you are talking about.

maybe a Sony SAL-50F14

I use the 50mm/1.8 because I didn't want to spend the money for the f/1.4. You can shoot without noise at +18db, or at +21dB with a very tiny bit of noise. The image will be far brighter than you can see with your eyes. I suppose the 1.4 might allow one to stay at +18dB.

There is NO noise in very dark shadows. Only in middle shades. No chroma noise at all.

Charlie Webster · October 26th, 2010, 12:37 AM

That's reassuring.

Are there A-mount zooms faster than the current E-mounts?

OK I looked it up.

"Sony Alpha Lenses with SAM (Smooth Autofocus Motor) and SSM (Super Sonic Wave Motor) will be able to autofocus with the Sony NEX LE-EA1, according to the Sony Press release. So here is a list of Alpha Lenses with SAM or SSM:

Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 24mm f/2 ZA SSM (36 mm - equivalent focal length on the NEX)
CZ Vario-Sonnar® T* 16-35 mm f2.8 Zoom SSM (24 - 52.5 mm)
CZ Vario-Sonnar® T* 24-70 mm f2.8 Zoom SSM (36 - 105 mm)
Sony Alpha 30mm f/2.8 Macro Lens SAM (45mm)
SA 35 mm f/1.8 SAM (52.5 mm)
SA 50 mm f/1.8 SAM (75 mm)
SA 85 mm f/2.8 SAM (127.5 mm)
SA 300 mm f/2.8 G SSM (450 mm)
SA DT 18-55 mm f/3.5-5.6 Zoom Lens SAM (27 - 82.5 mm)
SA 28-75 mm f/2.8 Zoom Lens SAM (42 - 112.5 mm)
SA 55-200 mm f/4-5.6 Zoom Lens SAM (82.5 - 300 mm)
SA 70-200mm f/2.8 G SSM (105 - 300 mm)
SA 70-300 mm f/4-5.6 G Zoom Lens SSM (105 - 450 mm)
SA 70-400 mm f/4-5.6 G Zoom Lens SSM (105 - 600 mm)

Since the nex3/5 have already been updated to autofocus with a-mounts, we are asumming vg10 will be updated on Nov, right?

The first one I'm getting is

Sony Alpha 30mm f/2.8 Macro Lens SAM (45mm). People rave about this cheap macro (200) and like it as a medium prime as well.

Here's a sweet 1080 utube that shows a bunch of lenes on the NEX 5, identified, on italian countryside in spring. Check out the 1500.00 135mm f/1.8 Lens. Note second sequence at 1:30, autofocus from hillside to flowers. Impressive.

YouTube - "?" NEX-5 Video "Light & Wind" Valdorcia, Italy ????????????????

Actually the 18-200 looks great in that, i thought.

Another which shows off the 18-200---looked amazing on my 42"

YouTube - Sony Nex-5 18-200mm Lens New York City Times Square Robot Man

Robert Young · October 26th, 2010, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Webster

Since the nex3/5 have already been updated to autofocus with a-mounts, we are asumming vg10 will be updated on Nov, right?

Good question.
Sony has been very quiet.
I haven't seen much of anything but speculation re the firmware update.
People are assuming there will be AF with A-Lenses. The other issue is camera control of iris on A-Lenses- will it be included in the update, or will it still be wide open shooting only if the lens has no manual aperture ring.
We shall see.

Charlie Webster · October 26th, 2010, 02:04 AM

Came across this which implies v3 nex-5 firmware allows aperature control of both E-mount and A-mount. It seems to say that in the earlier version of this closely related camera the A-mounts has functioning auto control of the iris from the camera.

"When Minolta introduced the Maxxum cameras in 1985, however, they did away with the aperture ring and used electronics inside the camera to regulate the aperture. If desired, the photographer could still manipulate the aperture manually, but it had to be done through a menu on the camera body.

This makes a conversion adapter for A-mount lenses more challenging to design. Conventional adapters rely on the user manually setting the aperture. Since there is no external method for changing the aperture on an A-mount lens, any useful adapter needs to provide a way for the camera to actually control the lens electronically.

Admittedly, it isn’t difficult to pass electrical information through an adapter. but the adapter needs to be designed so the camera’s aperture control can control the lens.

The LA-EA1 can do just that, providing automatic — and presumably manual — control of the lens from the camera’s controls. Since the auto-diaphragm on the A-mount lenses is also controlled electronically, the new adapter will provide auto-diaphragm capability as well.

What the adapter will not provide, however is auto-focusing. The overwhelming majority of A-mount lenses do not have internal focusing motors, so the adapter is not designed to offer auto-focus.

The other limitation is image stabilization. Sony Alpha dSLRs are famous for having image stabilization built into the body. In order to make the NEX bodies as small as possible, however, Sony engineered the small cameras to use in-lens stabilization. As a result, A-mount lenses mounted to the NEX series cameras will not have stabilization.

One other interesting feature of the adapter is the built-in tripod collar. The NEX series cameras are so small that there might be problems using a heavy lens on the camera while it is on a tripod. Sony eliminated the problem by incorporating a standard tripod mount within the adapter. You merely hang the camera body on the adapter, while all the weight of the lens is borne by the adapter."

From sony: "Unleash your creativity. Designed exclusively for α NEX-3 and NEX-5 cameras, the LA-EA1 adapter lets you mount α A-mount lenses to your E-mount camera body. Additionally, this adapter has Auto Exposure support with aperture mechanism and includes a detachable tripod attachment."

Next question: what older manual aperture lenses should we be hunting?

check out this thread:
Manual focus, manual aperture lenses on Nex [Page 1]: Sony NEX Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Jeez this could be good--most of you prolly already know about it:
BA246B Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.4 Wide Angle Leica M Mount Lens - Black

5k porn on the nex-5:

Sony NEX-5 with leica 35 summilux DPP07DA081C001701 - a photo on Flickriver

more:

Flickriver: Most interesting photos from Sony NEX-5 and Leica, Zeiss, Voigtlander lens pool

from last, the Voigtlander ULTRON 28mmF2 at 579

Amazon.com: Voigtlander Ultron 28mm f/2.0 Lens with Leica M Mount - Black: Camera & Photo

and this seems almost a steal at 429.00

BA246B Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.4 Wide Angle Leica M Mount Lens - Black

and what must be the fastest lens for the nex series:

NOKTOR - Ultra Fast Lenses - Products

Paul Curtis · October 26th, 2010, 05:26 AM

Charlie,

Thanks for all the tests. The VG10 seems so close but the fact that the OLPF is for stills not video is creating all that moire. Why on earth did sony do that when you can pick up a nex 3 for very little! You could bundle one with the VG10 if they wanted to push stills.

Anyway, it does make me wonder whether it's feasible to swap the OLPF for something designed for HD resolution. After all who is using their cam for stills...

If it was swappable and the HDMI was uncompressed then it would make a really nice APS-C camcorder.

What do you think

cheers
paul

Charlie Webster · October 26th, 2010, 02:37 PM

Regards moire, which many are aghast at:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Young

Well, here's an update on the moire artifacting with the VG10, and some other recent observations as well.
I have shot a fair amount of test footage with the VG10, and was seeing an alarming amount of moire when viewing the transferred raw footage on my desktop monitor (1920x1080).
I wanted to see what was the best BR presentation the cam could provide, so I followed my usual HD workflow- converted the raw clips to Cineform HD.avi, put the Cineform clips on a timeline, trimmed and tossed a bit, rendered out to 25mbs h.264 Blu Ray, burned the BD, and just now watched it on a 50' Sony HDTV.
I saw two amazing things:
1) The footage really, really looked good. Images that looked a little flat, a little Ho Hum...yawn, on the raw AVCHD, looked absolutely lush. Beautiful color, excellent detail, good motion rendering, including pans. The DOF capability, even at f 6/7 range, provided a very subtle artistic effect to what were otherwise just "snapshot" type grabs. Autofocus seemed to be very effective at sticking to the foreground subject, and would gently refocus to the background on panning off of the subject.
I am finally impressed.
2) Most Amazing of All!!:
Maybe 80%-90% of the moire had mysteriously dissappeared. Minor moire was gone. Severe moire was still visable, but not very noticable except to critical observers like us. Footage that had looked unusable as raw AVCHD was now (with one single exception) usable in the BD version (by my standards anyway). This pretty well minimizes, for me anyway, what seemed to be a very severe flaw in the camera.

Robert keep us posted. I still need to get my workflow set up, perhaps cineform HD is the way to go with this.

I wonder how the moire will show in a down conversion for DVD

The times square "metal man" a few posts above showed moire, but I'm pretty sure there was no NLE work there.

Check out this:

http://vimeo.com/groups/nexvg10/videos/15416053

you might expect to see some with the strainer---none.

some other moire examples note that sharpening has not been adjusted.

While moire is visible in some examples, I don't see alot or any in 90% of the footage I've watched. Of course alot of that has been edited.

For me that's OK. Everything will go through NLE.

There are quite a few cry babies screaming about the issue and a few have even sent their cameras back. So quickly that you doubt they have really tried to address the issue, or done much NLE testing.

Robert Young · October 26th, 2010, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Webster

Came across this which implies v3 nex-5 firmware allows aperature control of both E-mount and A-mount. It seems to say that in the earlier version of this closely related camera the A-mounts has functioning auto control of the iris from the camera.

One potential fly in the ointment (apparently), is that camera control of the A lenses for still cameras is more straightforward because, apparently some of the lenses move only from stop to stop- not continuous, whereas for video, you need a lens with continuous iris motion.

Robert Young · October 26th, 2010, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Webster

While moire is visible in some examples, I don't see alot or any in 90% of the footage I've watched. Of course alot of that has been edited.

There is no question that moire is an issue with the VG10.
With the particular workflow I use, I still notice less moire on the final delivery product than I see in the raw AVCHD footage. Reducing the detail setting in the camera my help a bit as well.
It seems like any cam that is optomized for both still and video will have this problem.
But, for my purposes, this has not been a deal killer for the VG10.

Charlie Webster · October 26th, 2010, 05:20 PM

Good to hear Robert

Funniest review of VG10--or perhaps of any video camera ever:

YouTube - Sony NEX VG-10: First Impressions & Hands-on

Robert Young · October 26th, 2010, 06:03 PM

Good video- Sony should hire the guy.
Another thing about the moire- if you are doing a $6M commercial for Lexus, probably not going to use a VG10
If you are making a ski video for friends, family, and web, a little moire on a roof top is probably not so critical.
IMO, things have only got to be as good as they need to be.

Paul Curtis · October 27th, 2010, 01:17 AM

Whilst i agree with the comments above i would like to remind people that the moire could have been seriously reduced if sony had used a suitable OLPF. It seems insane to me to suggest a video camera could shot full res stills as well.

I'd suggest that whatever system was being used to view the AVC files perhaps wasn't scaling correctly, so full screen they look better with no dumb scaling going on.

Also day to day shooting very rarely happens at super wide apertures. This nice thing about this sensor is that it's APS-C and so those normal f5.6 apertures will still show depth of field but at more useful focus ranges. I'm sure the first thing we've all done is get a dSLR stick it a f1.4 marvel at the bokeh then realise that if the subject matter breathes they're not longer in focus - and pulling focus on modern lenses just isn't pretty!

cheers
paul

Dave Blackhurst · October 27th, 2010, 09:48 AM

Paul -

While I've been concerned with the moire issues, and it's one reason I haven't jumped on the DSLR bandwagon (although as soon as I can put hands on an SLT-a55, I will be doing so, and if one of those "complainers" offs his VG10 for cheap on eBay...), it's not just this camera or DSLR's...

I've seen some pretty nasty moire on broadcast TV - one newsguys' suit was practically "vibro-tweed" it was so bad, I'm pretty sure the station had "better" and way more expensive cameras than the VG10. It was actually sort of "funny" to watch how the guys suit "danced" on screen - something in the fabric pattern definitely "did NOT agree" with the camera or something in the signal chain!

Like anything else (I seem to remember "red" being a problem color and "verboten" for actors/talking heads to wear), there are technological limits and challenges one must be aware of and deal with when shooting.

It's a terrible shock to the "consumer" when a piece of technology isn't "perfect" (like the stupid "blue dot" controversy with the CX550V - lens flare happens people...), but from a practical standpoint, todays cameras represent enormous imaging potential at price points that are very affordable. "Pros" on the other hand are thrilled to be able to create incredibly high quality images for "peanuts", and will figure out workarounds to the shortcomings.

October 25th, 2010, 04:47 PM	#556
Henry Olonga Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: London Posts: 201	Hi Robert - does the VG10 output clean HDMI out of interest? By that I mean without any overlays and uncompressed? Any way of tersting for us. Sorry if this has been asked __________________ My vimeo page: http://vimeo.com/henryolonga/videos My website: www.henryolonga.net

October 25th, 2010, 08:19 PM	#558
Charlie Webster Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Sun Valley, Idaho Posts: 81	So.....what have we here is the gorgeous GF, wild in bed, stunning, but real moody syndrome. Last edited by Charlie Webster; October 26th, 2010 at 12:19 AM.

October 26th, 2010, 02:04 AM	#562
Charlie Webster Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Sun Valley, Idaho Posts: 81	Came across this which implies v3 nex-5 firmware allows aperature control of both E-mount and A-mount. It seems to say that in the earlier version of this closely related camera the A-mounts has functioning auto control of the iris from the camera. "When Minolta introduced the Maxxum cameras in 1985, however, they did away with the aperture ring and used electronics inside the camera to regulate the aperture. If desired, the photographer could still manipulate the aperture manually, but it had to be done through a menu on the camera body. This makes a conversion adapter for A-mount lenses more challenging to design. Conventional adapters rely on the user manually setting the aperture. Since there is no external method for changing the aperture on an A-mount lens, any useful adapter needs to provide a way for the camera to actually control the lens electronically. Admittedly, it isn’t difficult to pass electrical information through an adapter. but the adapter needs to be designed so the camera’s aperture control can control the lens. The LA-EA1 can do just that, providing automatic — and presumably manual — control of the lens from the camera’s controls. Since the auto-diaphragm on the A-mount lenses is also controlled electronically, the new adapter will provide auto-diaphragm capability as well. What the adapter will not provide, however is auto-focusing. The overwhelming majority of A-mount lenses do not have internal focusing motors, so the adapter is not designed to offer auto-focus. The other limitation is image stabilization. Sony Alpha dSLRs are famous for having image stabilization built into the body. In order to make the NEX bodies as small as possible, however, Sony engineered the small cameras to use in-lens stabilization. As a result, A-mount lenses mounted to the NEX series cameras will not have stabilization. One other interesting feature of the adapter is the built-in tripod collar. The NEX series cameras are so small that there might be problems using a heavy lens on the camera while it is on a tripod. Sony eliminated the problem by incorporating a standard tripod mount within the adapter. You merely hang the camera body on the adapter, while all the weight of the lens is borne by the adapter." From sony: "Unleash your creativity. Designed exclusively for α NEX-3 and NEX-5 cameras, the LA-EA1 adapter lets you mount α A-mount lenses to your E-mount camera body. Additionally, this adapter has Auto Exposure support with aperture mechanism and includes a detachable tripod attachment." Next question: what older manual aperture lenses should we be hunting? check out this thread: Manual focus, manual aperture lenses on Nex [Page 1]: Sony NEX Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review Jeez this could be good--most of you prolly already know about it: BA246B Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.4 Wide Angle Leica M Mount Lens - Black 5k porn on the nex-5: Sony NEX-5 with leica 35 summilux DPP07DA081C001701 - a photo on Flickriver more: Flickriver: Most interesting photos from Sony NEX-5 and Leica, Zeiss, Voigtlander lens pool from last, the Voigtlander ULTRON 28mmF2 at 579 Amazon.com: Voigtlander Ultron 28mm f/2.0 Lens with Leica M Mount - Black: Camera & Photo Amazon.com: Voigtlander Ultron 28mm f/2.0 Lens with Leica M Mount - Black: Camera & Photo and this seems almost a steal at 429.00 BA246B Voigtlander Nokton 40mm f/1.4 Wide Angle Leica M Mount Lens - Black and what must be the fastest lens for the nex series: NOKTOR - Ultra Fast Lenses - Products Last edited by Charlie Webster; October 26th, 2010 at 03:17 AM.

October 26th, 2010, 06:03 PM	#568
Robert Young Trustee Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Coronado Island Posts: 1,472	Good video- Sony should hire the guy. Another thing about the moire- if you are doing a $6M commercial for Lexus, probably not going to use a VG10 If you are making a ski video for friends, family, and web, a little moire on a roof top is probably not so critical. IMO, things have only got to be as good as they need to be. __________________ Bob

October 26th, 2010, 12:37 AM	#560
Charlie Webster Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Sun Valley, Idaho Posts: 81	That's reassuring. Are there A-mount zooms faster than the current E-mounts? OK I looked it up. "Sony Alpha Lenses with SAM (Smooth Autofocus Motor) and SSM (Super Sonic Wave Motor) will be able to autofocus with the Sony NEX LE-EA1, according to the Sony Press release. So here is a list of Alpha Lenses with SAM or SSM: Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 24mm f/2 ZA SSM (36 mm - equivalent focal length on the NEX) CZ Vario-Sonnar® T* 16-35 mm f2.8 Zoom SSM (24 - 52.5 mm) CZ Vario-Sonnar® T* 24-70 mm f2.8 Zoom SSM (36 - 105 mm) Sony Alpha 30mm f/2.8 Macro Lens SAM (45mm) SA 35 mm f/1.8 SAM (52.5 mm) SA 50 mm f/1.8 SAM (75 mm) SA 85 mm f/2.8 SAM (127.5 mm) SA 300 mm f/2.8 G SSM (450 mm) SA DT 18-55 mm f/3.5-5.6 Zoom Lens SAM (27 - 82.5 mm) SA 28-75 mm f/2.8 Zoom Lens SAM (42 - 112.5 mm) SA 55-200 mm f/4-5.6 Zoom Lens SAM (82.5 - 300 mm) SA 70-200mm f/2.8 G SSM (105 - 300 mm) SA 70-300 mm f/4-5.6 G Zoom Lens SSM (105 - 450 mm) SA 70-400 mm f/4-5.6 G Zoom Lens SSM (105 - 600 mm) Since the nex3/5 have already been updated to autofocus with a-mounts, we are asumming vg10 will be updated on Nov, right? The first one I'm getting is Sony Alpha 30mm f/2.8 Macro Lens SAM (45mm). People rave about this cheap macro (200) and like it as a medium prime as well. Here's a sweet 1080 utube that shows a bunch of lenes on the NEX 5, identified, on italian countryside in spring. Check out the 1500.00 135mm f/1.8 Lens. Note second sequence at 1:30, autofocus from hillside to flowers. Impressive. YouTube - "?" NEX-5 Video "Light & Wind" Valdorcia, Italy ???????????????? Actually the 18-200 looks great in that, i thought. Another which shows off the 18-200---looked amazing on my 42" YouTube - Sony Nex-5 18-200mm Lens New York City Times Square Robot Man

October 26th, 2010, 05:26 AM	#563
Paul Curtis Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canterbury Posts: 411	Charlie, Thanks for all the tests. The VG10 seems so close but the fact that the OLPF is for stills not video is creating all that moire. Why on earth did sony do that when you can pick up a nex 3 for very little! You could bundle one with the VG10 if they wanted to push stills. Anyway, it does make me wonder whether it's feasible to swap the OLPF for something designed for HD resolution. After all who is using their cam for stills... If it was swappable and the HDMI was uncompressed then it would make a really nice APS-C camcorder. What do you think cheers paul

October 26th, 2010, 05:20 PM	#567
Charlie Webster Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Sun Valley, Idaho Posts: 81	Good to hear Robert Funniest review of VG10--or perhaps of any video camera ever: YouTube - Sony NEX VG-10: First Impressions & Hands-on

October 27th, 2010, 01:17 AM	#569
Paul Curtis Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canterbury Posts: 411	Whilst i agree with the comments above i would like to remind people that the moire could have been seriously reduced if sony had used a suitable OLPF. It seems insane to me to suggest a video camera could shot full res stills as well. I'd suggest that whatever system was being used to view the AVC files perhaps wasn't scaling correctly, so full screen they look better with no dumb scaling going on. Also day to day shooting very rarely happens at super wide apertures. This nice thing about this sensor is that it's APS-C and so those normal f5.6 apertures will still show depth of field but at more useful focus ranges. I'm sure the first thing we've all done is get a dSLR stick it a f1.4 marvel at the bokeh then realise that if the subject matter breathes they're not longer in focus - and pulling focus on modern lenses just isn't pretty! cheers paul

October 27th, 2010, 09:48 AM	#570
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Paul - While I've been concerned with the moire issues, and it's one reason I haven't jumped on the DSLR bandwagon (although as soon as I can put hands on an SLT-a55, I will be doing so, and if one of those "complainers" offs his VG10 for cheap on eBay...), it's not just this camera or DSLR's... I've seen some pretty nasty moire on broadcast TV - one newsguys' suit was practically "vibro-tweed" it was so bad, I'm pretty sure the station had "better" and way more expensive cameras than the VG10. It was actually sort of "funny" to watch how the guys suit "danced" on screen - something in the fabric pattern definitely "did NOT agree" with the camera or something in the signal chain! Like anything else (I seem to remember "red" being a problem color and "verboten" for actors/talking heads to wear), there are technological limits and challenges one must be aware of and deal with when shooting. It's a terrible shock to the "consumer" when a piece of technology isn't "perfect" (like the stupid "blue dot" controversy with the CX550V - lens flare happens people...), but from a practical standpoint, todays cameras represent enormous imaging potential at price points that are very affordable. "Pros" on the other hand are thrilled to be able to create incredibly high quality images for "peanuts", and will figure out workarounds to the shortcomings.