Sony NEX-VG10 AVCHD E-Mount Lens Camcorder

[Robert Young]

Originally Posted by Vaughan Wood

Only time will tell, but by the end of the year, I think Sony will definitely be on the back foot for quite a while.

You could be right, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
I'm thinking that Sony has just put their toe in the water with the VG10, while Panasonic has jumped all the way into the pool. The AF 100 may be absolutely brilliant, or may have significant shortcomings. We will see. Either way, Panasonic is married to it now.
Sony Pro division would have to be crazy to not have an NX sized, APS chip, EX featured cam in the skunkworks as we speak. If they pull that out of the hat in 2011, at a $6-$7K price point, they will be in the game indeed.
...and still be in position to spread the APS KoolAid to the masses with the VG line. I don't know the numbers, but surely that's where the real money is :)
Exciting times...

[Tom Hardwick]

Originally Posted by Bill Koehler

What I find sad is Sony using plastic in a lens with a current retail price of $800 USD.How far we have fallen.

You shouldn't find it sad in the slightest, as all the manufacturers have used high pressure injection moulded plastic aspherical elements in their zoom lenses for very many years. If they used glass you wouldn't be able to afford the lens as each element would have to be ground individually and they'd soon be out of business.

Also remember that hundreds of thousands of people walk around all day long looking through hugely complex aspherical plastic elements in their glasses, with no complaints.

Or do I read you wrong Bill? When you say 'Sony using plastic in a lens' might you be referring to the lens barrel construction?

tom.

[Steve Mullen]

"You shouldn't find it sad in the slightest, as all the manufacturers have used high pressure injection moulded plastic aspherical elements in their zoom lenses for very many years. If they used glass you wouldn't be able to afford the lens as each element would have to be ground individually and they'd soon be out of business."

It's not the lenses being plastic that is the issue. It's the mechanism being made of plastic because the friction is so great.

Some CUs at 200mm.

[Bill Koehler]

Originally Posted by Tom Hardwick

You shouldn't find it sad in the slightest, as all the manufacturers have used high pressure injection moulded plastic aspherical elements in their zoom lenses for very many years. If they used glass you wouldn't be able to afford the lens as each element would have to be ground individually and they'd soon be out of business.

I'm actually dating myself, Tom. In my mind, my first "real" camera was a 1977 Pentax KM SLR with ~50mm f1.8 lens. There wasn't much plastic in it and the out the door price was $150. I remember that last part well because as a graduating high school senior, that's all I had. And I think we all know as the value of the dollar keeps falling, manufacturers keep finding ways to pull out cost. The use of plastic is one of those ways. When I say "How far we have fallen" I'm actually referring mostly to the incredibly shrinking dollar.

I do understand how modern lenses are built. I personally don't like plastic in the barrel construction and mount to the camera.

Originally Posted by Tom Hardwick

Also remember that hundreds of thousands of people walk around all day long looking through hugely complex aspherical plastic elements in their glasses, with no complaints.

I'm one of them. If it's farther than about 15 inches away, I have to wear glasses to see it clearly...even the computer screen as I'm typing this. When I finally made the switch from glass lenses to plastic, my glasses lost a massive amount of weight.

[Dave Blackhurst]

Materials science has come quite a way (one of the reasons I suspect Sony is trying the translucent "T" pellicle mirror in the SLT's, although they still make it sound like it can't be touched by anything ever... which scares me), and plastic is pretty common in about everything...

BUT, boy oh boy is there a difference between my older metal and glass Minolta A mount lenses and the new Sony plastic fantastic ones... yes they have heft, but they also move quieter and smoother, looking forward to putting a couple on an a55, even though they are relatively cheap "slow" lenses!

Frankly Sony could right now release a "VG11", with the sensor from the a55/a580 (I suspect they are already going to have a sensor shortage!). From the things I've read, the higher 16MPixel sensor also has a bit more light sensitivity over the 14.2, and it'd be almost "plug and play".

Anything that the "auto" functions "touch" can probably be mapped relatively easily to a button/wheel/touchscreen (yeah, I'd like to see a touchscreen in the VG... love it for certain things in the "handycams"). It's a matter of firmware being allowed to "touch" the same internal hooks so the user can make the adjustments manually. Anyone remember the HC9, which added peaking and a few other things to the HC7? I'd bet those functions were "in" the DSP chips all along, waiting to be unlocked... The CX550 added 24Mbps and more manual control access... but it's pretty much the same sensor block and guts as the CX500 (and to a major extent the XR500). Odds are good it was there all along...

MANY of the feature set decisions are made on what Sony believes the market will demand/accept, but they are already showing remarkable responsiveness, with a pending update that has been hailed as completely revitalizing the NEX3/5 user interface (which was roundly criticized!), and a VG10 update supposedly around the corner. I suspect many of the capabilities are already engineered in, it's a matter of figuring out what, and how the user wants to use it, in these "new" ergonomic designs!


Sony will sell a boatload of VG10's on sex appeal alone, but I suspect the secondary market of slightly used ones may be busy... I just don't see the average user "getting" the camera after getting (buying) it. I'll be watching...

Meanwhile I've got to sell a couple older cameras, but an a55 will be the the direction I go... it's got heat issues (internal to the body Super OIS rather than OIS in the lens of the VG10), meaning short clips, and I'm a bit leery of the new pellicle "no touchy" mirror (hey, things get touched!!), but For $750, $850 with kit lens, and I've got some decent Alpha glass, it should get me the shallow DoF aesthetic.

I think in the end it's that aesthetic ("value" as Robert noted) that these cameras bring to the table. People "expect" the cinematic style, with the shallow rack focus, and overall look (heck, Sony is even putting a faux DoF in their P&S line, and it actually does work OK to "fake" the SLR DoF). The only question really is whether they can cram all the expertise of a skilled camera operator into the controller chips that "help" the camera decide which object to track focus/exposure on - the XR/CX550 shows that is possible, and it's available RIGHT NOW in $300-400 point and shoots... Sony needs to put the accessability to the manual features into the higher end cams so the "pro" will accept them though...

[Bill Koehler]

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

... Anyone remember the HC9, which added peaking and a few other things to the HC7?...

Uhhh...that's my camera, Dave. Memory has nothing to do with it. I thought it was a far better value than the HDR-HD1000. I could think of other things to spend the difference on :-)
When I buy a new camera, it tends to be a huge jump in feature set. The NEX-VG10 qualifies.

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

... and a VG10 update supposedly around the corner....

I know, I've been watching the updates roll out for the NEX-5 and NEX-3 on SonyStyle, you know an update for the NEX-VG10 has got to be on its way. Leaving out RAW for stills, among other things, is just a sin. For me, the gravitational pull of this camera is amazing...

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

...I just don't see the average user "getting" the camera after getting (buying) it. I'll be watching...

You and me both will be watching. The average user wants brain-dead simplicity. Imagine their shock that consistently getting good DOF shots REQUIRES focus & aperture skills.

[Steve Mullen]

"BUT, boy oh boy is there a difference between my older metal and glass Minolta A mount lenses and the new Sony plastic fantastic ones... yes they have heft, but they also move quieter and smoother ..."

I think one of the reasons, beyond the fact I'm no longer working all around the world, that I no longer enjoy shooting is there is NO tactile feeling to today's "cameras." When you combine the move to plastic with the fact the kids who design "camera" products for the "electronics" companies have never used a Euro built camera -- you have an image capture "device" but not a camera.

I sold my Minolta Maxxon (sp) immediately because I hated the menu-based operation.

For many years JVC, unlike Sony and Pana, built consumer video cameras that were just like Super8 cameras. Now they have joined the gadget makers.

The question is not will Sony make newer VG10's, but if you go to their Japanese site and read interviews with the NEX-series designers, it seems they are very dedicated to creating a new "non-camera" device for consumers. It is a STYLE driven design. As I said before, it is an iPod concept. Create a NEW market.

And, it is working big for Sony. The VG10 is designed not to compete with other Sony camcorders or DSLRs. It is CONCEPT driven. Meaning, marketing first created the marketing buzz-words (BIG chip, shallow DOF, great sound, really sexy look) which is THE goal of the NEX=series and has engineering deign it.

We have to find a way to use what we have been given. Just like we learn to use an iPad.

PS: you should read HOW the new Sony tag-line was created. These folks are stylists.

[Robert Young]

The VG 10 firmware update is supposed to be in November, but I have seen nothing about what features it will have, what problems it will correct.
Has anyone heard any rumbles about it??

[Michael Murie]

The firmware update will add support for Autofocus with A Series lenses. Haven't seen anything else about what's in there for the NEX-VG10. This article talks about what's in the NEX-5/3 software

Sony NEX Firmware Update

[Lynne Whelden]

I hear you, Steve, regarding the loss of enjoyment in shooting. I don't know if it's my age (57) or the 2 herniated discs in my lower back (I started shooting back in '79 with the 30-pound TK-76) or something else. But in the last 5 years my only projects of any substance have been a solitary backpacking video I've been shooting with the Sony HC-3 (which tells you when I started the project).

I so want to have a camcorder that gives me the HD, the large sensor, the nice audio, the LACK of video artifacts (I'm so tired of the video look) and is affordable. I'd then like to live with this camera for a number of years and get to know it inside and out. The same way a violinist buys a Stradivarius and uses it as his lifelong instrument without fear of it becoming "obsolete." Maybe we're still far away from such a camera. Maybe not in my lifetime. But I was kind of hoping the VG10 might be 'the one.'

[Dave Blackhurst]

Lynne -

In all honesty the HC3 had one of the worst "HD" sensors I think I've seen over the years - it was an interim camera to bring the price of entry down into the consumer space vs. the HC1, and while it laid the foundation for the later HC's (and for that matter the current SR/XR/CX) with better sensors, it's very very outdated compared to cameras from the last couple years. I think that the HC3 sensor is probably your source of "artifacts", I remember seeing macroblocking from that camera... great size and weight, not so great image quality...

While the large sensor is a big draw for DoF, and the mic system of the VG10 looks pretty nice, you might at least take a look at the other camera several of us are using as a reference... the CX550V is a pretty solid all round performer, very very clean (low noise), good in bad light, big 3.5" LCD and a viewfinder, very stable when handheld, and yet still very light and compact (nice for those discs!). Honestly, aside from the oddball tripod mount location, I'd have to try really hard to come up with a list of "must have" improvements to the CX550... not a lot to quibble with, it's the culmination of several years of Sony design refinements.

Worst case the CX550V might be worth a look to keep your toes in the water with a camera that's "state of the art" as far as video cameras go. The "big sensor battle" really has JUST gone from a skirmish to all out war... and if you are after that "look", Sony pretty much doubled the choices in the last couple months, and added new and previously unseen designs (NEX, SLT). If you're into still photography, an SLT- a55 plus a CX550V would probably prove to be a more versatile combination, and just about as compact as the VG10, as long as you didn't go stir crazy on lenses!

As sexy as the VG10 is... I'm not giving up the CX550, and adding an a55 will get me most of the things I would use a VG10 for, along with a pretty amazing still camera at a bargain price point.

[Robert Young]

Originally Posted by Lynne Whelden

I so want to have a camcorder that gives me the HD, the large sensor, the nice audio, the LACK of video artifacts

Well, here's an update on the moire artifacting with the VG10, and some other recent observations as well.
I have shot a fair amount of test footage with the VG10, and was seeing an alarming amount of moire when viewing the transferred raw footage on my desktop monitor (1920x1080).
I wanted to see what was the best BR presentation the cam could provide, so I followed my usual HD workflow- converted the raw clips to Cineform HD.avi, put the Cineform clips on a timeline, trimmed and tossed a bit, rendered out to 25mbs h.264 Blu Ray, burned the BD, and just now watched it on a 50' Sony HDTV.
I saw two amazing things:
1) The footage really, really looked good. Images that looked a little flat, a little Ho Hum...yawn, on the raw AVCHD, looked absolutely lush. Beautiful color, excellent detail, good motion rendering, including pans. The DOF capability, even at f 6/7 range, provided a very subtle artistic effect to what were otherwise just "snapshot" type grabs. Autofocus seemed to be very effective at sticking to the foreground subject, and would gently refocus to the background on panning off of the subject.
I am finally impressed.
2) Most Amazing of All!!:
Maybe 80%-90% of the moire had mysteriously dissappeared. Minor moire was gone. Severe moire was still visable, but not very noticable except to critical observers like us. Footage that had looked unusable as raw AVCHD was now (with one single exception) usable in the BD version (by my standards anyway). This pretty well minimizes, for me anyway, what seemed to be a very severe flaw in the camera.

The other big issue to me was the effectiveness of the OIS for hand held shooting.
I did some shots with OIS completely off- wow, was that awful.
Now that I see the size of the problem, the OIS is looking much better to me. I'm just realizing that I have to use killer technique for holding the cam. No casual one hander's like with the CX550.
The more I get to know this camera, the more respect I'm developing for what it can do, and what I can use it for.

[Junior Pascual]

Thank you for that concise assessment of the VG10, Robert. It confirms what I was already finding out with my VG10. Awesome cam! I'm loving mostly everything about it.

Jr.

[Steve Kalle]

Anybody else notice the 'pattern' in Steve Mullen's images? Zoom in and they are very easy to see, and look like an interlace pattern, but I thought this camera was not capturing interlace. While the bokeh looks beautiful, the rest of the image does not.

[Steve Mullen]

How many times does it have to be said -- it shoots progressive.

However, to ALL software the files are seen as interlaced. So your ProRes, HDxND, AIC, HQ files will be interlaced. Once it goes into a progressive Sequence the original nature is ignored.

However, I loaded it into the QT Player so god knows what it does when it makes a BMP frame. :)

It could bob deinterlace which would double the thickness of every line.

This is why one should never look at postings to check "quality." And, why I don't post videos on the internet.

I've been looking at the video on a 47-inch Sony LCD and the video is spectacular!!! First consumer camcorder that resolves great detail on leaves at full wide -- very EX1 like. A long long way from the V1!

Rack focusing is very easy -- even hand-held which these shots were. The DOF can be made so thin one can move focus from the front to the back of a flower. The 1.8 is amazing, but you can hear the focus dial being turned. Consider that when using non E-mount lenses. ("The firmware update will add support for Autofocus with A Series lenses.")

PS: OT, before altering sharpness on any camera, be sure you have set your monitor correctly. Typically sharpness should be between 5 and 15. Also, remember, that Sony sets the Default sharpness to obtain the optimum frequency response with the least edge ringing. Altering to get a film look wipes out FOREVER fine detail. And, setting Contrast to +3 clips bright AND dark detail when shooting bright high contrast situations.