Sony NEX-VG10 AVCHD E-Mount Lens Camcorder

Robert Young · July 21st, 2010, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Batta

YouTube - Sony Handycam NEX-VG10 New videos show the features (NEX VG10)

The low light/night shots using the standard 18-200mm lens look pretty durn good.
I had questions as to how the VG10 would do in low light w/ the standard lens. I was afraid you would need to switch over to an f 1.4 prime to get decent performance, but apparently not.

Ben Hogan · July 22nd, 2010, 06:51 PM

How soon do you think they will have an adapter so we can use nikon or canon, etc. lenses?

I've heard there is not another model coming after this, ie the upgrade with xlr, etc. That this is the model for this size. Maybe that bigger beast(with the price tag) will be the big brother to the VG10. I've heard canon nor JVC will be releasing anything like this within the next 18 months probably. I wouldn't expect canon too with the 5D and 7D out there anyway.

I'm looking forward to this camera. I like the smaller size for travel and getting that versatile DOF using different lenses but still having a more conventional camera body to it. I played with my Nikon's 720p video and while I like the picture coming from it, using it as a video camera and not being 1080 is a real drag. I want to be able to use my already invested in Nikon glass to attach to this Sony VG10.

I own the EX-1 and love it. But I like having lots of options on the table to complete a project depending on the needs of that project. Plus, as mentioned before, going to shoot some promo type footage or needing to travel where big camera isn't needed, this VG10 looks great; and I can save on my back carrying this thing around.

Jay West · July 22nd, 2010, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Young

The low light/night shots using the standard 18-200mm lens look pretty durn good.
I had questions as to how the VG10 would do in low light w/ the standard lens. I was afraid you would need to switch over to an f 1.4 prime to get decent performance, but apparently not.

There is an evening shot in this Swiss video at about 3:13 on the time line which has a title saying it was shot with the stock lens.

I'm not sure how late this was taken. The sky looks kind of light which may be over-exposure as a result of the shooting settings or maybe it wasn't all that dark yet. And some places in Switzerland have street lighting that can put stage lighting to shame.

These querelous comments aside, the images do look very good as I mentioned the first time this link was posted. For anybody coming late to this thread, check out this video and the "Beautiful Bali" video that was linked a few pages back.

Robert Young · July 23rd, 2010, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay West

I'm not sure how late this was taken. The sky looks kind of light which may be over-exposure as a result of the shooting settings or maybe it wasn't all that dark yet. And some places in Switzerland have street lighting that can put stage lighting to shame.

The very same thoughts ran thru my mind as well- but they were shot with the f 3.4 stock lens, and they did look pretty credible, so I'm thinking that it's a definite possible maybe. Encouraging anyway.
The Bali low light shots look very nice, but they were all shot with fast lenses.
I was actually considering the notion that having a single prime 50mm f 1.4 Sony A lens w/ adapter could be a fairly cost effective ace in the hole for high quality low light shooting. With an effective 75mm angle of view, it could be pretty versitile, yet still be a fairly small extra item to carry.

Jay West · July 23rd, 2010, 04:20 PM

Bob -- depending on how dark your shooting conditions are, you may well want to pack along that "A" lens as well as the zoom that is supposed to come stock with the VG10.

What prompts this is that I got to thinking about some shooting I did five years ago when I got my first HDV cam, a Sony HDR HC1 which Sony rated down to 7 lux. My mountain resort town has an annual Christmas-time weekend festival which we call "the Stroll." Its called "the Stroll" because that is what people get to do when we block off the main street in the evening. It is all bright and "Christmassy" and we sometimes even get the Currier & Ives snow fall, too.

I took my little HDR-HC1 downtown and got excellent night-time views under lighting rather like what you see in the Swiss video. But, later, when shooting wedding receptions indoors and with lights turned way down for "the mood" that wedding planners and DJ's seemed wont to create, the limitations of the 7 lux floor became obvious.

So, it seems to me that for the low light situation with the kind of nighttime street scene seen in the Swiss video or in my HC1 shooting, that VG10 stock zoom lens will be fine. With something darker, VG10 owners probably will want one of the other lenses (such as the "A" lens you mentioned) and will need to pay attention to focusing as was done in the dimmer parts of the temple scene at the end of the Beautiful Bali video.

This is meant as an observation and not criticism of the camera. After all, being able to switch lenses is a primary reason for getting a camera like the VG10, isn't it?

Robert Young · July 23rd, 2010, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay West

This is meant as an observation and not criticism of the camera. After all, being able to switch lenses is a primary reason for getting a camera like the VG10, isn't it?

Absolutely.
With an f 1.4 Sony A lens, the VG10 could quite possibly beat the image quality of the EX in low light.

Steve Mullen · July 25th, 2010, 05:32 PM

"After all, being able to switch lenses is a primary reason for getting a camera like the VG10, isn't it?"

That's exactly the point of a CAMCORDER that can interchangeable with STILL cameras. Of course, you'll have to manually focus and manually zoom, but that is typical of shooting film.

The second "point" is the minimal DOF which is why the Bali "video" looks more like film than did my shooting at 24p with Sony's prototype V1 several years ago. This is the advantage of a large sensor.

Minimum DOF plus 25p or 30p will make a convincing film look.

For those who DEMAND 24p can get it several ways -- but a 25p unit and conform to 24p in FCP.

However, film fans needs to realize that unless they go to real film -- 24p will be either seen with 2-3 pulldown on 60Hz displays OR at 120/240 Hz. The former is how film has always been seen on TV. The latter looks like "video."

Daniel Browning · July 25th, 2010, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

...at 120/240 Hz.... looks like "video."

120hz by itself does not cause the video look; it's only when motion interpolation is used that the filmic motion becomes mutilated. This anti-filmmaker criminal has many aliases: anti-judder, motionflow, real120, clear motion, trumotion, smooth 120, auto motion plus, fine motion enhanced, clearscan, MEMC, IFC, etc. When motion interpolation is disabled, 24p is displayed with motion that is much more similar to an actual film projection (and a lot better than 60hz). Of course, a lot of the rabble proably prefer to have it cranked up (along with all the other settings).

Steve Mullen · July 25th, 2010, 10:31 PM

In my experience watching a lot of 50Hz PAL on progressive (line-doubled) TVs with 100Hz refresh -- NO INTERPLOATION -- film look like video. That's why refresh rate itself is a variable. Anything more than 72Hz becomes a problem.

The faster the refresh rate the briefer the black-period between presentations. Ultimately, the eye sees a "near continuation" image. As the image moves from 48 flashes per second to none -- a move that makes it look less like theater film.

Only the Kuro offered 72Hz and one Pana plasma offers 96Hz. So, you have a choice of a video look or pulldown judder.

Thus, 25p viewed at 50Hz or 30p viewed at 60Hz really come closer to the theater experience than 24p.

Steve Mullen · July 25th, 2010, 11:34 PM

"Also, if it's true, the shoe is finally on the other foot--us guys who like the motion rendering of 60i will be whining about being stuck with 30p motion--hands wringing..."why, oh why couldn't they give us TRUE 60i". I can hear it already :)"

"Getting back to the "deinterlacing" issue.

Yes - this is what is properly called psf - "progressive, segmented frame". Exactly how films have always been shown on TV."

"The point is a true 60i camera exposes at a rate of 60 frames a second so the temporal motion is 60 frames a second. Since the 60i camera only records fields every 1/60 second, and two fields make a frame the standard says its 30 frames a second !!!! 60i is smoother, its taking twice as many shots of the scene as 30P."

Let's look at some of these comments:

1) PsF is NOT how film is moved to video. Film to video is done by adding 2-3 pulldown that converts 24p to 60i. PsF is essentially doing nothing to the video! :)

Each progressive frame has by definition no interlace artifacts because all lines are captured at once. Now the frame is compressed. (The same thing is done with interlace -- both fields are compressed together.) Viewing on the camcorder's LCD and VF is progressive.

So where is the "interlace?" Only in the header of the compressed video. It says "60i" so your NLE knows what the video "is." Of course, it is a lie because the video isn't 60i. Why lie? Because every NLE will accept 60i (or 50i)!

You can edit PsF 60i no differently than 60i. There is NO conversion! NO deinterlacing! (Field-based FX will still work fine -- even though not needed.) And, exports to BD or DVD will work fine. (You can't make 25p or 30p BDs.) No hassle for the consumer. Except, you should never deinterlace going to the Internet unless it is a Weave deinterlace.

-------

PsF can NOT be used with 24p -- although Sony does/did 24p into/over 48i -- which is where the term PsF came from. There really is no need to use the term PsF. I still like 1080i60/24p because it shows the 1080i60 which we all know. But, PsF is kind of nice because it should get folks away from think about deinterlacing.

-------

Yes -- those wanting the 60i look may be unhappy IF they see strobing. But, will they? It depends on the shutter-speed we can select. A point midway between 1/30th and 1/60th is ideal.

Sony can also "negative judder correction" as they do with CineAlta cameras.

Looking at the bicycle VG10 footage there are definitely objects (the white hat) which appears as two slightly displaced images. This is not found with pure progressive. It was not motion blur which is VERY clear on the feet. It's possible is Sony is doing a bit of frame blending which would help with strobing. Which could explain why Sony will not say 25p/30p.

-------

The statement "taking twice as many shots" is kind of correct -- the statement "60i camera exposes at a rate of 60 frames a second" is not correct because while ALL CCD/CMOS lines may be exposed every 1/60th second (a FRAME) only one FIELD is actually recorded each 1/60th second. So 60i is 60 FIELDS per second. The number of images/second is 2X that of 30p which is why it is so much smoother.

=====

For lots more. read: http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv...em/index1.html

Robert Young · July 26th, 2010, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Hogan

How soon do you think they will have an adapter so we can use nikon or canon, etc. lenses?

I've heard there is not another model coming after this, ie the upgrade with xlr, etc. That this is the model for this size. Maybe that bigger beast(with the price tag) will be the big brother to the VG10. I've heard canon nor JVC will be releasing anything like this within the next 18 months probably. I wouldn't expect canon too with the 5D and 7D out there anyway.

I'm looking forward to this camera. I like the smaller size for travel and getting that versatile DOF using different lenses but still having a more conventional camera body to it. I played with my Nikon's 720p video and while I like the picture coming from it, using it as a video camera and not being 1080 is a real drag. I want to be able to use my already invested in Nikon glass to attach to this Sony VG10.

I own the EX-1 and love it. But I like having lots of options on the table to complete a project depending on the needs of that project. Plus, as mentioned before, going to shoot some promo type footage or needing to travel where big camera isn't needed, this VG10 looks great; and I can save on my back carrying this thing around.

I would imagine that 3rd party manufacturers would want to see a fair number of VG10s out in use before trying to market an adaptor for non Sony lenses. Could be a while.
I'm in the same boat with the EX1- it's a fantastic camera, but it is big and heavy.I do a lot of travel projects and run n' gun stuff where there is just no way I'm hauling the EX around with me. I've gotten some great images with the little Sony CX550 and that's what I currently travel with, but it has its limitations. The VG10 potentially looks like a great camera for travel.
Another problem with the EX is that it can attract the wrong kind of attention ("Sir,may we see your filming permit?").
The VG10 may be just small enough to blend in unobtrusively with the tourists ;-)

Frank Grygier · July 26th, 2010, 07:48 AM

Spotted this:

Sony E Mount lens adaptors coming soon : Lens Adaptor.Com

Robert Young · July 26th, 2010, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Grygier

Spotted this:

Sony E Mount lens adaptors coming soon : Lens Adaptor.Com

Duhh...
I totally forgot about the NEX still cameras.
Of course, that's what will drive the development of the Nikon and Canon 35mm lens adaptors, not the VG10.

Robert Young · July 26th, 2010, 12:41 PM

One thing I do wonder about re Nikon & Canon lenses with the VG10:
The Sony A lenses w/ E adapter clearly allow for camera driven exposure (f stops) and full "auto exposure", although focusing is manual.
I'm thinking that with non Sony 35mm lenses, both focus and f stop may be manual.

Steve Kalle · July 26th, 2010, 12:44 PM

I am a former Alpha shooter (A900) and current EX1 owner. Some of the Alpha lenses are absolutely amazing: CZ 24-70, CZ 85/1.4, CZ 135/1.8, STF 135, CZ 16-35. This camera could be a dream machine by adding a nanoFlash so you can get any framerate and very high bitrate.

However, I am very worried about its Dynamic Range. I am surprised that I am the only one bringing this up. In the Bali video, look at how the sky is blown out on many shots and also the waves crashing and how they are completely blown out. The part with the parade looked like a cheap camcorder due to its low DR. I hope that the cameramen and editors of this video just don't have a clue and that is why the DR appears to be so low. For it to be a serious video camera, it MUST compete with the 12/13 stops of the 7D/5D.

July 25th, 2010, 05:32 PM	#157
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	"After all, being able to switch lenses is a primary reason for getting a camera like the VG10, isn't it?" That's exactly the point of a CAMCORDER that can interchangeable with STILL cameras. Of course, you'll have to manually focus and manually zoom, but that is typical of shooting film. The second "point" is the minimal DOF which is why the Bali "video" looks more like film than did my shooting at 24p with Sony's prototype V1 several years ago. This is the advantage of a large sensor. Minimum DOF plus 25p or 30p will make a convincing film look. For those who DEMAND 24p can get it several ways -- but a 25p unit and conform to 24p in FCP. However, film fans needs to realize that unless they go to real film -- 24p will be either seen with 2-3 pulldown on 60Hz displays OR at 120/240 Hz. The former is how film has always been seen on TV. The latter looks like "video." __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

July 25th, 2010, 10:31 PM	#159
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	In my experience watching a lot of 50Hz PAL on progressive (line-doubled) TVs with 100Hz refresh -- NO INTERPLOATION -- film look like video. That's why refresh rate itself is a variable. Anything more than 72Hz becomes a problem. The faster the refresh rate the briefer the black-period between presentations. Ultimately, the eye sees a "near continuation" image. As the image moves from 48 flashes per second to none -- a move that makes it look less like theater film. Only the Kuro offered 72Hz and one Pana plasma offers 96Hz. So, you have a choice of a video look or pulldown judder. Thus, 25p viewed at 50Hz or 30p viewed at 60Hz really come closer to the theater experience than 24p. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

July 25th, 2010, 11:34 PM	#160
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	"Also, if it's true, the shoe is finally on the other foot--us guys who like the motion rendering of 60i will be whining about being stuck with 30p motion--hands wringing..."why, oh why couldn't they give us TRUE 60i". I can hear it already :)" "Getting back to the "deinterlacing" issue. Yes - this is what is properly called psf - "progressive, segmented frame". Exactly how films have always been shown on TV." "The point is a true 60i camera exposes at a rate of 60 frames a second so the temporal motion is 60 frames a second. Since the 60i camera only records fields every 1/60 second, and two fields make a frame the standard says its 30 frames a second !!!! 60i is smoother, its taking twice as many shots of the scene as 30P." Let's look at some of these comments: 1) PsF is NOT how film is moved to video. Film to video is done by adding 2-3 pulldown that converts 24p to 60i. PsF is essentially doing nothing to the video! :) Each progressive frame has by definition no interlace artifacts because all lines are captured at once. Now the frame is compressed. (The same thing is done with interlace -- both fields are compressed together.) Viewing on the camcorder's LCD and VF is progressive. So where is the "interlace?" Only in the header of the compressed video. It says "60i" so your NLE knows what the video "is." Of course, it is a lie because the video isn't 60i. Why lie? Because every NLE will accept 60i (or 50i)! You can edit PsF 60i no differently than 60i. There is NO conversion! NO deinterlacing! (Field-based FX will still work fine -- even though not needed.) And, exports to BD or DVD will work fine. (You can't make 25p or 30p BDs.) No hassle for the consumer. Except, you should never deinterlace going to the Internet unless it is a Weave deinterlace. ------- PsF can NOT be used with 24p -- although Sony does/did 24p into/over 48i -- which is where the term PsF came from. There really is no need to use the term PsF. I still like 1080i60/24p because it shows the 1080i60 which we all know. But, PsF is kind of nice because it should get folks away from think about deinterlacing. ------- Yes -- those wanting the 60i look may be unhappy IF they see strobing. But, will they? It depends on the shutter-speed we can select. A point midway between 1/30th and 1/60th is ideal. Sony can also "negative judder correction" as they do with CineAlta cameras. Looking at the bicycle VG10 footage there are definitely objects (the white hat) which appears as two slightly displaced images. This is not found with pure progressive. It was not motion blur which is VERY clear on the feet. It's possible is Sony is doing a bit of frame blending which would help with strobing. Which could explain why Sony will not say 25p/30p. ------- The statement "taking twice as many shots" is kind of correct -- the statement "60i camera exposes at a rate of 60 frames a second" is not correct because while ALL CCD/CMOS lines may be exposed every 1/60th second (a FRAME) only one FIELD is actually recorded each 1/60th second. So 60i is 60 FIELDS per second. The number of images/second is 2X that of 30p which is why it is so much smoother. ===== For lots more. read: http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv...em/index1.html __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c Last edited by Steve Mullen; July 26th, 2010 at 12:06 AM.

July 26th, 2010, 07:48 AM	#162
Frank Grygier Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Austin,TX Posts: 125	Sony Lens Adapter Spotted this: Sony E Mount lens adaptors coming soon : Lens Adaptor.Com

July 26th, 2010, 12:41 PM	#164
Robert Young Trustee Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Coronado Island Posts: 1,472	One thing I do wonder about re Nikon & Canon lenses with the VG10: The Sony A lenses w/ E adapter clearly allow for camera driven exposure (f stops) and full "auto exposure", although focusing is manual. I'm thinking that with non Sony 35mm lenses, both focus and f stop may be manual. __________________ Bob

July 22nd, 2010, 06:51 PM	#152
Ben Hogan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Grapevine Texas Posts: 27	How soon do you think they will have an adapter so we can use nikon or canon, etc. lenses? I've heard there is not another model coming after this, ie the upgrade with xlr, etc. That this is the model for this size. Maybe that bigger beast(with the price tag) will be the big brother to the VG10. I've heard canon nor JVC will be releasing anything like this within the next 18 months probably. I wouldn't expect canon too with the 5D and 7D out there anyway. I'm looking forward to this camera. I like the smaller size for travel and getting that versatile DOF using different lenses but still having a more conventional camera body to it. I played with my Nikon's 720p video and while I like the picture coming from it, using it as a video camera and not being 1080 is a real drag. I want to be able to use my already invested in Nikon glass to attach to this Sony VG10. I own the EX-1 and love it. But I like having lots of options on the table to complete a project depending on the needs of that project. Plus, as mentioned before, going to shoot some promo type footage or needing to travel where big camera isn't needed, this VG10 looks great; and I can save on my back carrying this thing around.

July 23rd, 2010, 04:20 PM	#155
Jay West Major Player Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Red Lodge, Montana Posts: 889	Bob -- depending on how dark your shooting conditions are, you may well want to pack along that "A" lens as well as the zoom that is supposed to come stock with the VG10. What prompts this is that I got to thinking about some shooting I did five years ago when I got my first HDV cam, a Sony HDR HC1 which Sony rated down to 7 lux. My mountain resort town has an annual Christmas-time weekend festival which we call "the Stroll." Its called "the Stroll" because that is what people get to do when we block off the main street in the evening. It is all bright and "Christmassy" and we sometimes even get the Currier & Ives snow fall, too. I took my little HDR-HC1 downtown and got excellent night-time views under lighting rather like what you see in the Swiss video. But, later, when shooting wedding receptions indoors and with lights turned way down for "the mood" that wedding planners and DJ's seemed wont to create, the limitations of the 7 lux floor became obvious. So, it seems to me that for the low light situation with the kind of nighttime street scene seen in the Swiss video or in my HC1 shooting, that VG10 stock zoom lens will be fine. With something darker, VG10 owners probably will want one of the other lenses (such as the "A" lens you mentioned) and will need to pay attention to focusing as was done in the dimmer parts of the temple scene at the end of the Beautiful Bali video. This is meant as an observation and not criticism of the camera. After all, being able to switch lenses is a primary reason for getting a camera like the VG10, isn't it?

July 26th, 2010, 12:44 PM	#165
Steve Kalle Trustee Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,554	I am a former Alpha shooter (A900) and current EX1 owner. Some of the Alpha lenses are absolutely amazing: CZ 24-70, CZ 85/1.4, CZ 135/1.8, STF 135, CZ 16-35. This camera could be a dream machine by adding a nanoFlash so you can get any framerate and very high bitrate. However, I am very worried about its Dynamic Range. I am surprised that I am the only one bringing this up. In the Bali video, look at how the sky is blown out on many shots and also the waves crashing and how they are completely blown out. The part with the parade looked like a cheap camcorder due to its low DR. I hope that the cameramen and editors of this video just don't have a clue and that is why the DR appears to be so low. For it to be a serious video camera, it MUST compete with the 12/13 stops of the 7D/5D.