Decided to Sell My EA50

[Aaron Jones Sr.]

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

Hi Steve

I guess if Aaron has limited his activities to non run 'n gun and is shooting from a tripod it doesn't really matter! My mate has an FS100 and with a small prime up front you can actually hand hold the camera with the grip and strap but put on a decent and practical lens and do run 'n gun and you definitely need a decent rig and like you I find them a pain and love the EA-50 form factor!

If I wanted to get a camera with a bigger sensor I think the FS100 would be good enough ..then again if you need a lot of super slomo the 700 is a better camera by far!

The EA50 is STILL and awesome camera with the right glass and I have no intention at this stage of changing mine ... I do weddings using just the Sigma 18-35 F1.8 lenses and my video light stays in the box.

I don't want to sway Aaron's thinking but for me TWO EA-50's with nice lenses for me is a better setup than having just one FS700 .... one could get a nice second cam and a couple of new lenses for the difference!

Chris

I have a Sony HDR AX2000 for my documentary and sports and also use as b-cam. I have the Canon 7D as a C cam and i use it in conjunction with my Benro A48TDS4 Video Monopod and get great close up and b roll shots. The EA is my main currently and moving up to a FS100 or FS700 will give me better footage. I do not consider my self a Run & Gun. I'm mainly using Tripods. There are times when i do like to take the cam off the tripod and get on the dance floor at receptions and also go around and get guests candidly at weddings but that is about it. There are a few other exceptions but everything else is done on tripod.

[Aaron Jones Sr.]

Got a chance to look at FS100 and FS700 Side By Side HERE Hmmm....

[Chris Harding]

I did exactly the same Aaron

Keep the 18-35 if you sell your EA-50 as it will be a huge asset on either an FS100 or FS700 and the F1.8 will be even better at receptions!! I was also thinking about an FS100 when I still was using the stock lens as I was struggling at wedding venues but after getting the Sigma there was no need to change and the shoulder mount is so useful for run 'n gun shooting. Pity Sony didn't make an EA-60 with the FS sensor in it!!

You will notice with Phillip Bloom's review that he is using Canon glass too. I like slomo but it's not an essential ...the thing that concerns me though on the 700 is the camera can only put 9 seconds of video into the buffer at 240fps before it stops to write all that data to the card which means a 30 second wait before you shoot again! the Ultra slow feature that goes right up to 960 also means you lose a huge amount of vertical resolution. He mentions that as well.

If you have a real need for slomo then the 700 is the camera to get but I reckon the 100 would still be great at weddings especially with the Sigma on the front!!

[Steven Digges]

Hi Aaron,

I am going to add my .2 cents. I am often blunt but I never intend to be critical, my posts are always well intentioned. I have followed every post you have made here at DVINFO. Guys like you are what make being a member of this community fun. You participate regularly (a lot of newbie’s ask a few questions and go away) ask good questions, and seem to appreciate our input. It is like watching you develop your business and style (yes, I check out your work).

Keep in mind I am an old school guy who has done this for over twenty years. I have a lot of old traits I stick to but I can still learn new tricks once in a while ;)

One of the old values I try to stick to is matching cameras and lenses. I am not a fix it in post guy. Every camera model and group of lenses has a unique “look”. I’m not even talking about better or worse I’m talking about “different”. This forum is littered with pixel peepers that will argue all day long about how they can see the difference between every codec, resolution, bit rate etc, etc and then you look at their work and it is obvious they have built what I call a Franken Kit. They shoot with mismatched cameras and lenses and every time the video cuts you see the look change. This is often still there even if they did try to fix it in post. Fixing mismatches in post is not a perfect world. You have said many times you want to expand out of shooting just weddings. Having matched footage is videography 101 in most professional environments. You already have three different cameras and a grab bag of lenses. I just don’t get it when anybody does that.

A camera is part of a system to me, it is not the beginning or the end. Every part of my system must work with every other part and contribute positively to the end product. Post production is time consuming at best. I shoot with post production in mind. That means if its garbage in it will be garbage out. So I try to get it right during acquisition. Time is money.

I was part of all those old posts when you and Chris were discussing your kit lens and manual lenses. I do not think I upset Chris when I say this, I have said it before, he has developed a style and a system that works for him and what he shoots. That is wonderful, but it is a unique and limited style. Even in his genre and yours, of weddings, you will not find the majority of shooters using ultra wide angle lenses for almost every shot they take. He will correct me if I am wrong but that is the impression I have from reading hundreds of his posts. When you sold your kit lens and went full manual with dumb adaptors you essentially crippled your EA50. The EA50 is a feature rich, highly electronic camera with major bang for the buck. You can no longer use a large amount of the features you paid for. I am not going to debate the quality of the kit lens, we have all done that over and over again. I am just saying it has its place. This is even more important. You say your fed up with adapters so you’re going to sell the body. The camera is not the problem, the dumb adapters are the problem. Using a Metabones smart adapter will get you back all of the functionality you discarded except AF. Please keep in mind they sell two versions. The speed booster for $600.00 and the regular smart adapter for $400.00 (not sure if that’s current price). Either one of them are worth it in my opinion. Even with that said, I shoot primarily with Canon glass and I am in manual modes most of the time. But I keep all of my options at my disposal.

You said “a FS100 or FS700 will improve the quality of my images”. Please explain that to me. I don’t see it happening. Even if you used the more advanced FPS, higher bit rate, better codec etc. features of those cameras how are you going to incorporate that into your “B” and “C” camera system. The system not only involves gear and codecs that need to work together it involves the end product. Are you delivering the vast majority of your product on SD DVDs? Will they really benefit from a FS700?

I do event coverage of all types and I need to be prepared to meet the needs of a wide variety of scenarios. Therefore I do not make equipment selections that put me in a box. On one hand you say you want to expand out of weddings, on the other you just said “90% of my shooting is from a tripod so I am OK with a box form factor”. I suggest you factor in the cost of “a rig” for the FS100 or FS700 as you ponder the transition because without one they are not designed to be a field camera. In fact, the FS700 is a cine camera, your B camera is a camcorder, and your C camera is a DSLR. Someday I can here you screaming BREATHE MONSTER, BREEEEEATH!!! I have a sense of humor ;)

A little more food for thought. I said I can learn new tricks. I recently broke two things I thought I would never do. I thought I would never need a handycam for anything. I also thought I would never buy a used camera. I recently picked up a used (new in open box, and it is) VG30 on e-bay. I bought it specifically to keep on my Black Bird so I would have something small and light I could handle there. Because of my stated preference for matched cameras the VG30 was the only option for me. I got more than I paid for! It has the same sensor as my EA50 and apparently the same or very similar processor. They are a perfect match as long as I put Canon glass or Sony kit lens on both of them. I use it for a B cam more than I thought I would, it is not just for the Black Bird. That is another advantage of the EA50, you can get matched B cams for $700.00 to $900.00 (body only) to me that is ridiculously cheap for a camera that shoots the same image as my EA50.

So, in summary I am suggesting you take a look at your whole system and your future needs. I just don’t see dumping an EA50 and moving to a FS700 producing a big net gain for you. And you will still have lens and adapter things to work out. But hey, that is why we have so many choices. We each must find what works for us!

Kind Regards,

Steve

[Chris Harding]

Hi Steve

Absolutely not ..I totally agree with you ..both my EA-50's have been crippled with manual lenses! I used to love the LCD touch focus ..it was awesome and accurate. I often hit the preview last clip button and miss it and hit say button 3 and get the screen saying "This function is not available due to the condition of the lens" ... that's a function I might use more if I had an e-mount lens

Just realise that crippling the camera is a function of the job not the person! Weddings are in very low light and Sony simply don't make lenses that cover the range we need that are fast enough!! At weddings I'm working between 18 and 35mm cos that's as far as I ever get from people ..it's a close work environment and my EA-50's need F1.8 or F2 lenses to see in the dim lighting.

I could more than likely get an FS700 which would give me a 2 stop advantage so the stock lens would work perfectly BUT do I want to get a 700 and spend all that money?? Nope I really don't need the slomo features and the EA_50 still has way better form factor.

Here is my take on Aaron's dilemma!!

FS100 : Maybe 1 stop advantage on the sensor so it will still struggle at weddings so probably back to manual lenses
FS700 : 2 stop advantage so you could use stock 18-200 at weddings ... no other manual lenses needed but do you really need the slomo and big price??

EA-50 - Needs manual lenses at weddings but has a better form factor for shooting and cheaper.

What would I do?? Get a second EA-50 ... Having matched cameras like I do is the only way to go.

Chris

[Aaron Jones Sr.]

Originally Posted by Steven Digges

Hi Aaron,

I am going to add my .2 cents. I am often blunt but I never intend to be critical, my posts are always well intentioned. I have followed every post you have made here at DVINFO. Guys like you are what make being a member of this community fun. You participate regularly (a lot of newbie’s ask a few questions and go away) ask good questions, and seem to appreciate our input. It is like watching you develop your business and style (yes, I check out your work).

I appreciate that! I really do... I am a newbie that got into this business after shooting a horrible little skit of my son and then what i called post editing to make a horrible finished render made me feel as if i would like to learn more about Videography... I'm a rambunctious person a lot of times where i jump into things feet first and try and figure it out along the way. Also the main reason is to add more to my wife's business by adding videography to her services and it gives us a great way to spend time together on events and especially when we travel.

Originally Posted by Steven Digges

Keep in mind I am an old school guy who has done this for over twenty years. I have a lot of old traits I stick to but I can still learn new tricks once in a while ;)

One of the old values I try to stick to is matching cameras and lenses. I am not a fix it in post guy. Every camera model and group of lenses has a unique “look”. I’m not even talking about better or worse I’m talking about “different”. This forum is littered with pixel peepers that will argue all day long about how they can see the difference between every codec, resolution, bit rate etc, etc and then you look at their work and it is obvious they have built what I call a Franken Kit. They shoot with mismatched cameras and lenses and every time the video cuts you see the look change. This is often still there even if they did try to fix it in post. Fixing mismatches in post is not a perfect world. You have said many times you want to expand out of shooting just weddings. Having matched footage is videography 101 in most professional environments. You already have three different cameras and a grab bag of lenses. I just don’t get it when anybody does that.

Well, It was the way I got into this field that paved my thought process. When I started I had no one show me anything only what I learned in this forum, youtube, and my wife as an photographer with limited time. I'm pretty fortunate that I'm able to spend time at work watching some videos and bring my laptop in to work on a few things when we are not too busy. I try and apply those learning lessons in my project. I have to say that I know that I'm not a professional at all and do not claim to be. I'm feel that I am creative in post editing but still a beginner. This is all pretty new to me and I do it as a means to help my wife and also because i like making projects. I have these cams that are different from one another because I did not know any better. All the people that i know that do this type of work have mismatch cams. I only have a couple years in doing this and in those couple of years it is part time at best. I get great feedback from our clients as well as word of mouth referrals. Granted these are people that have no ideas what Videography is or what it should look like. On the same note I have fun working with these projects. They tell me all the time that we have shopped around and you guys do not charge enough. I get that alot. So i decided to try and find me a Videography class where i can start learning 101 up to what ever...

Originally Posted by Steven Digges

I was part of all those old posts when you and Chris were discussing your kit lens and manual lenses. I do not think I upset Chris when I say this, I have said it before, he has developed a style and a system that works for him and what he shoots. That is wonderful, but it is a unique and limited style. Even in his genre and yours, of weddings, you will not find the majority of shooters using ultra wide angle lenses for almost every shot they take. He will correct me if I am wrong but that is the impression I have from reading hundreds of his posts. When you sold your kit lens and went full manual with dumb adaptors you essentially crippled your EA50. The EA50 is a feature rich, highly electronic camera with major bang for the buck. You can no longer use a large amount of the features you paid for. I am not going to debate the quality of the kit lens, we have all done that over and over again. I am just saying it has its place. This is even more important. You say your fed up with adapters so you’re going to sell the body. The camera is not the problem, the dumb adapters are the problem. Using a Metabones smart adapter will get you back all of the functionality you discarded except AF. Please keep in mind they sell two versions. The speed booster for $600.00 and the regular smart adapter for $400.00 (not sure if that’s current price). Either one of them are worth it in my opinion. Even with that said, I shoot primarily with Canon glass and I am in manual modes most of the time. But I keep all of my options at my disposal.

I understand what you are saying here. I did not like the dumb adapter at all. I did test out the Viltrox and Commlite. I like the Viltrox better than the Commlite. I like that they adjust iris for my automatically. I just became better at manual focus with the EA. I used the dumb adapter a few times and could not get over the vignetting. It was only $40USD no biggy to me at all. I tried it and I did not like it. So now I still have the auto Iris adapters that I use and I like them much better. I always wanted to try the Metabones and I'm sure I will get one probably next mouth or sooner. I wanted to experience the different methodologies and strategies that I have read about here. I consider this place a wealth of knowledge to tap into. I'm extremely appreciative to you (Steven) and Chris as well as all the others that have allowed me to be a fly on the wall and listen to the conversations here. I have learned to take what I like and discard what i don't like or what does not fit me and my purpose.

Originally Posted by Steven Digges

You said “a FS100 or FS700 will improve the quality of my images”. Please explain that to me. I don’t see it happening. Even if you used the more advanced FPS, higher bit rate, better codec etc. features of those cameras how are you going to incorporate that into your “B” and “C” camera system. The system not only involves gear and codecs that need to work together it involves the end product. Are you delivering the vast majority of your product on SD DVDs? Will they really benefit from a FS700?

I do event coverage of all types and I need to be prepared to meet the needs of a wide variety of scenarios. Therefore I do not make equipment selections that put me in a box. On one hand you say you want to expand out of weddings, on the other you just said “90% of my shooting is from a tripod so I am OK with a box form factor”. I suggest you factor in the cost of “a rig” for the FS100 or FS700 as you ponder the transition because without one they are not designed to be a field camera. In fact, the FS700 is a cine camera, your B camera is a camcorder, and your C camera is a DSLR. Someday I can here you screaming BREATHE MONSTER, BREEEEEATH!!! I have a sense of humor ;)

I shoot and render projects on DVD's and Blu-Ray. What I mean by improve the quality of my shots is first Low Light Performance. I see the FS100 is better in this regard. The FS700 has the higher frame rate that is good for slow motion. I love slow motion and i like to include in my projects when I can. Also the FS700 has the built in ND Filters which will help me be free of extra steps when shooting outside. My AX2000 is pretty nice in this regard and helps me when I'm outside shooting PSA's or events. Again, being a beginner I really can not tell you the correct meaning of A, B, C cams, but for me it is the A cam is my main shooter it is the the cam that I'm intending on using for the main shots. B-Cam is my cam i use to get some main cam shots at a different angle and also b-roll shots that I can not get wile using the A-Cam simultaneously. My C-Cam I just got a month or two ago which really is a hand me down from my wife after i got her a Canon 1DX. I wanted to take chances with this cam get shots that will get me some different perspectives. It is the one where if i do not get any good footage on it it does not make or break my strategy or plan. My strategy is always based on my ability to post edit. I see certain things and I want to bring them out by switching from A to B cam in post. a lot of times there are things going on simultaneously and it is important to me to be able to capture that. You mentioned about not being pigeonholed and ready for different scenarios, well in weddings there are always unforeseen things, at least when it comes to me, that I encounter so i have to be ready for those as well. In my little experience and after maybe 20 weddings i find that brides prefer the close shots with wide angles. They want to be the center of the attention but want the there immediate surroundings as well so they can see what is going on. This is what i try and provide. I try and be as close as i can and at the same time get the immediate environment as well. To me this is where style, opinion, preference, and all that comes into play. It is what separates one videographer from another, that is if we can say they both are similar in how they capture with settings and so on.

I'm definitely appreciative to you all that have contributed to this forum and added your insight. For someone like me that is awesome. Again I'm now seeking to get some schooling in this area as I see I really like it.

[Chris Harding]

Good response Aaron!

You have to remember that us oldies tend to "shoot for editing" I have seen some raw footage from a guy using a DSLR at a ceremony and I nearly fell over ..he had probably 50 short clips mostly out of focus and he was attempting to use maybe 10% of the footage in post.

Shooting correctly on site saves hundreds of post hours. I can sometimes "top and tail" my clips and that's it!! If you have gear that works well at the shoot you limit post hours which is the way to go and also the way to make a decent profit!!

Even as a photog I frame very carefully but my wife (my wedding photog on dual packages) frames a lot wider by habit ...I can often skip thru 100 still shots and not have to crop any ..she has to crop maybe 80% ..do the same with video and you save a LOT of time.

Oh dear! Adapters are a curse yes but I have yet to see an adapter that works perfectly like it's not there ...Pete Rush is using the Metabones too but often reports the iris jumps a bit when changing. That's why I use a dumb adapter and I don't see any issue why you guys think it's bad?? The EA-50 still gives me auto exposure with a dumb adapter ...I can just let it do it's thing OR I can turn my adapter lens ring if I don't want a high shutter/ wide aperture .... It's a simple twist of a ring before you shoot so I really cannot see where a fully auto adapter is any better. As for focus even the camera with the stock lens is fussy in low light ..I have many clips taken on the fly with camera in full auto and you can see fuzzy faces or the focus pumping and hunting to try and get a sharp image.

Like Steve I still think that two matched cameras are far better than saying "what can I use for a B-Cam" I never have issues with cutaways or where my A-Cam is blocked and I have to jump in with the B-Cam

If you are still considering weddings I still would not look at one camera as a replacement but two identical ones

Chris

[Aaron Jones Sr.]

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

If you are still considering weddings I still would not look at one camera as a replacement but two identical ones

Chris

Agreed!! I was thinking about this as I was reading through Steven's response. The Canon EOS 7D was a cam that I got from my wife as I stated above. She has the Canon 5D Mark III & now the 1DX. So she is pretty set. Now that i have her set i can now put more attention to my little Sanford & Son equipment. I began with the AX2000 as my A-cam and I had a Canon Gh20 as a B-Cam. I got rid of the small GH20 and got the EA50 and now that is my new A-cam. I still have the AX2000 because it served me well with PSA's and sport events. And so now the 7D is added to my pile of misfit toys. Now I'm looking to straighten out my equipment and develop a plan. I have been trying this and that to see what i like best. So when i started this thread I had already decided to leave the EA and move to something a little better and build around that. So this is where I am so far.

[Steven Digges]

I will respond in more detail later.

Chris and I do often agree on a lot of things. Not that it makes good sense ; )

Aaron, I know far too many guys in your position that have chased technology instead of talent and true knowledge. It is always going to be the latest camera or piece of gear that makes them better. Yet they never learned how to shoot in the first place. All the money and tech in the world can't save them. Don't answer this question to me. Ask yourself where you skills are at? If you are as new as you say I suspect there may be much you can do to improve your product without spending more than an EA50 can do. Do you WANT a new camera or do you want to shoot better? It is a rhetorical question, think about it.....

Steve

[Aaron Jones Sr.]

Originally Posted by Steven Digges

I will respond in more detail later.

Chris and I do often agree on a lot of things. Not that it makes good sense ; )

Aaron, I know far too many guys in your position that have chased technology instead of talent and true knowledge. It is always going to be the latest camera or piece of gear that makes them better. Yet they never learned how to shoot in the first place. All the money and tech in the world can't save them. Don't answer this question to me. Ask yourself where you skills are at? If you are as new as you say I suspect there may be much you can do to improve your product without spending more than an EA50 can do. Do you WANT a new camera or do you want to shoot better? It is a rhetorical question, think about it.....

Steve

I want both... I know you said rhetorical, but... The truth is I really like it. I like trying to come up with a plan of action and how to capture what the client is asking for. I like editing as well, i like being creative in post and bring out something abstract sometimes when my limited skill can try and do so for the client. I'm priced extremely affordable and what i give my clients is pretty awesome for what they pay. In the mean time I'm always trying to get better. i want to shoot better, i want to experiment with all different kinds of tech. I'm a techy at heart. So as of lately I'm looking to get some classes for videography to learn to shoot better. I want to understand on the level that you guys do. I want to know the exact reason why I adjust this knob and that setting. right now a know few things but i want to learn more. I have alot creative ideas i would like to get out into projects but do not know how to accomplish them. I wish i stayed down the street from one of you guys and i would pay you to teach the basics. Anyway for now i will try and pick up a few classes that can give me some insight and help my overall product. At the same time I love tech toys and playing with them. By playing with them is how I get certain ideas and certain illuminations. Well that is just me anyway. One day I will look back and say i have 20 + years in the business... I'm a Electrician by trade and I have a great job. But i really like working on video projects. One day I will retire my electrical job and hope to be more full time doing video work.

[Chris Harding]

I am positive that manufactures prey on tech heads for sales nowdays! "Look at the all new features, shoot in 4K and see all the outstanding features" means nothing if the operator expects to press the record button and get a perfect shoot! I try not to pixel peep my footage BUT I do try to get shots that reflect the day and are filled with emotion. The sad thing is that many many videographers do not have any basic film making skills at all ... in fact often it's "wow, my DSLR shoots video so I'm a videographer now" You can see this a mile off on cinematic weddings where the shot is a stills inspired shot from a photographer turned videographer and although they have a good stills skill set they lack so much when it comes to film making. I wonder how many videographers know what eyeline, leading and looking space is? As good as one thinks they are, going back to basics can easily trigger "I didn't know that" comments.

However this IS a tech forum not a skills forum so everyone likes to talk about resolution, bitrates and such rather than techniques and rules. I got a comment on the wedding forum just the other day because I mentioned that content was way more important than resolution.

[Aaron Jones Sr.]

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

...As good as one thinks they are, going back to basics can easily trigger "I didn't know that" comments.

However this IS a tech forum not a skills forum so everyone likes to talk about resolution, bitrates and such rather than techniques and rules. I got a comment on the wedding forum just the other day because I mentioned that content was way more important than resolution.

Interesting... What is eyeline? LOL!! For that matter what is leading and looking space? LOL!! These are some of the reasons why I want to take some classes. So hopefully I will be enrolled shortly.

[Chris Harding]

Hi Aaron

Take a quick look at this site and see if there is anything that you did not know already?

Free Online Film School in 12 Filmmaking Tips

There are lots of sites and videos out there about what I call "movie making" and a lot apply to weddings if you think about it. For me the camera movement is so important especially if you have come from a stills background. Even silly things that we forget like the focus section ? Do you focus peak on eyes all the time?

Chris

[Steve Bobilin]

Hi Aaron,
Like you, I am still learning and want to shift toward new and creative techniques. One of the the best things I ever did was to take a short non-credit class about lighting for film. It was taught by a gaffer (or electrician) who works in the film industry.
We looked at footage from films and he explained how they probably set up the lights. I've never looked at films the same way. I'm trying to use the camera I have, but learn to be more thoughtful in using light.
It is a low-tech approach—but I do like dreaming about new cameras and lenses.
I like the concept of matching cameras as a system, as Steven & Chris have said.

[Chris Harding]

Hi Aaron

Eyeline refers to where the person's eyes are on the image. They are supposed to be on the upper third for maximum effect... check out newsreaders on TV and see where their eyeline is on the screen. I assume you have come to grips with the rule of thirds already.

If you have someone static in a frame and they are looking at an out of frame object to their left you need to provide "looking space" so they are naturally placed on the left of the frame so there is a big space between them and the object you cannot see ....place them on the right of the frame and see how stupid it looks .... obviously in the continuity flow one would then cut to the object/person as the viewer expects that.

Leading space is much the same so you would leave more space in front of a person walking across the frame than you would behind them.

Of course the number one rule is : Rules are made to be broken.. but not all the time! Check out a few online film making techniques (that's filmmaking NOT DSLR filming) You will be amazed what you will pick up that makes absolute sense and your shoots will look better too!!

Chris