Picture Profiles

[Noa Put]

Just to clarify a bit more the preset I used, it's called abelcine range and has following parameters:

Black Level: 0
Gamma: CinemaTone1
Black Gamma: Range = High / Level = +7
Knee: Point = 102.5% / Slope = -1
Color Mode: Type = Standard / Level =8
Color Level: -3
Color Phase: +1
Color Depth: R=-2, G=-6, B=-7, C=0, M=+2, Y=+5
WB Shift = All 0
Detail = Level = -3 / Manual Set = Off

Now I noticed that detail is set to -3 so that does explain the sharpness difference compared to my cx730, I just dialed this in before I left filming and only notice it now :) I guess for a fs100 that might be good as that camera would probably resolve more detail so I"ll try to turn that up a bit and compare with keeping it at -3 and sharpening in post.

[Rod Pike]

Hi Noa, et al,
I user a Panasonic 160a ,so am probably in the wrong forum! (Hi Chris) However, I am experimenting with cine V modes with reduced gamma -4 and reduced detail-2 and reduced vdetail -2. The results on 500% enlargement show very clearly that the "sharpness" modes only enhance edge acutance and really do nothing for real sharpness. In fact they look quite artificial- I hate outlined images! These "softer" settings actually retain more detail without dramatising edge effect.

In Barry Green's book he states something along the lines that the camera always produces the same resolution. It is the manipulation of edge acutance and contrast that makes it appear sharper. You cannot actually increase sharpness, only the perception of it.

Back in my photographic days I used to process ASA400 material to ASA 1600 using a Paterson developer. It sure looked brutally sharp at huge enlargement but really was all about edge acutance and crushed contrast range.

So, keeping away from edge acutance gives a more sort of fluid filmic look and I love this more cinematic look, but the beauty of this mode is only revealed on fairly big screens. I am going to play some more! - just idle chatter folks, but experiences are always worth sharing ( and I learned everything I know from my own experiences and mistakes, and those of others!!!)!

So if you get the time, shoot some stuff and enlarge 500% then look carfully at the edge detail.- could be life changing!!!

Cheers!
Rod.

[Chris Harding]

Hi Rod

I became quite good with understanding and setting the Panasonic scene files but now the Sony throws up a completely different set of parameters (probably the same thing under different names) We just have one detail setting and the Pannys have two ... detail and vertical detail.

I play with profiles when I have time but for now I'm just shooting on-going stuff with default...My Realty shoots are non critical so they are a nice location to experiment with, but I dare not do drastic changes to weddings that I cannot reverse.

I would still like to find a Sony "manual/white paper" like Pansonic has which explains in great depth exactly what each parameter does and what happens when you set it both up and down and they have images examples.

Chris

[Ron Evans]

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

Hi Rod
We just have one detail setting and the Pannys have two ... detail and vertical detail.

Chris

Chris you have to open the manual set under detail to get all the other detail parameters. The detail control is just a big volume control more or less !!!

Ron Evans

[Chris Harding]

Thanks Ron

I find no fault with the manual at all..in fact it's a darn side more comprehension than the Panasonic ones and at least Sony provide a hard copy too! It would just be nice to have another website/publication that went through each parameter and explained what it does and then gave you two images saying..this is what your picture will look like with Black Level at +7 and this is what your picture will look like at -7

I cannot find anything explaining PP's and was hoping that Sony or a Sony user had something online similar to what Panny released for the HMC150 Scene Files.

Chris

[Ron Evans]

This may cover some of what you are looking for Chris. http://www.sony-asia.com/microsite/p...utorial_e7.pdf

Ron Evans

[Chris Harding]

Hi Ron

I found that some time ago and for some reson the PDF wouldn't load! Now, using your link it took a bit of time but it eventually loaded and I have saved a copy..Perfect, thanks!! Exactly what I was looking for and much the same format as the Panny tutorial! I'll study it later in depth!!

I have a Realty shoot waiting!!

Chris

[Chris Harding]

Just did a shoot of a house inside and out and I decided to put the PP on "off" so it uses Sony's default settings and unless you are very picky it gives a very nice general use profile that's good for indoors and outdoors .... The CineAble mod gives a nice outdoor pic but if you move into deep shade it fails miserably and the standard PP3 is very washed out for outdoor work.

For now I will stick to default I think while I fiddle around with other settings. It's a pretty good default!!

Chris

[Noa Put]

I didn't think of setting the picture profiles to off before, will try that this evening, I will be testing the camera for a dance performance that will be on tommorow.

[Chris Harding]

Hi Noa

It would be neat to test the "off" setting, the old PP3, the AbleCine one you use and I would also look at trying the one for bright high contrast lighting as stage lighting can be quite bright and very high contrast ...However if the stage lighting is moderate that one will fail miserably..it didn't work for me with indoor lighting at all..Most of my indoor house shots are at F3.5 and between 0db and 6db ... the off setting worked really well though.

Apart from you and I I wonder if anyone else is using a PP preset, standard or otherwise or is PP set to off??

Come on people what profile are you finding works best??

Chris

[Noa Put]

Ok, just looking at the footage I made a few hours ago and for me pp5 comes closest to my cx730 on a lit stage, it is weird to see what results different presets have under different circumstances, pp3 f.i. was very noisy now while pp5 crushed the blacks much more so you'd loose detail in dark area's but it also decreased the noise, it also has more saturation which better matched the cx730's. the "off" setting was close but lacked colour (compared to my cx730) and had a bit more noise, pp2 and pp4 for looked a bit weird and abelcine range had more latitude but more noise.

I had to shoot at 3200 iso a lot to keep up with my cx730 which outperformed the ea50 with the stocklens by quite a margin. Anything over 3200 started to look ugly in terms of noise.

I still am in doubt what to do tomorrow, the ea50 with the stocklens is no match for my cx730 when they really dim the light and at first I wanted to let my 2cx730's run unmanned with exposure in auto but I saw I could set the ev to -1 only and not -2 which is not sufficient to prevent clipping so most of the footage is a bit overexposed then. So I probably will leave the ea50 unmanned on the side of the stage in auto with focus locked and with the lens wide because that can have the ev at -2 and when I maximize the iso at max 3200 it should be ok for most shots. Then I most likely will be having both cx730 side by side at the front manned with one wide and the second one for closeups and following the action.

[Chris Harding]

Hi Guys

OK, more discoveries again!! I shot a Church wedding on the "OFF" setting and wow..there is just too much colour saturation !! I would think that the standard PP3 setting would be a lot better...Funny it also seems to make the camera more sensitive indoors (it's doesn't but I think the excess saturation is simply making the image darker)

PP3 seems a nice preset for all indoor shots ... I tried playing with all parameters and watching the LCD and the only one that seems to make a BIG visual difference is the Gamma... Move the profile to Cinetone1 or 2 and the contrast goes sky high and colour saturation is also higher ... Drop back to ITU709 and the whole screen brightens up.

Use PP3 in bight outdoor shoots and shucks the colour just about dies!! Especially greens ...other than that it's nice ... maybe I'll try the AbelCine Colour Depth settings and see if that helps..."OFF" isn't too bad at all outdoors but in a Church it's terrible!!!

At this stage I like PP3 as it stands for indoor shots but need to mod the profile for outdoor now....

Anyone got a modded profile that works well outdoors???

Chris

[Dan Eskelson]

I played with a new Picture Profile today that seems like a possibility for outdoor shots in both sun and shade. Take a look...

Picture Profile on Vimeo

Black Level: +8
Gamma: Standard
Black Gamma
Range: Low
Level: -3
Knee (Manual)
Point: 80.0%
Slope: -2
Color Mode
Type: Cinematone1
Level: +8
Color Level: 0
Color Phase: -5
Color Depth
R: -4
G: +2
B: +3
C: 0
M: +2
Y: +2
WB Shift
Filter Type: LB-CC
LB [ColorTemp]: -3
CC[MG/GR]: -3
R Gain: -1
B Gain: +1
Detail (No Manual): -7

[Chris Harding]

Hi Dan

Thanks ..Did you perhaps take a still of the same scene with a digital camera and compare colours ?? To me the trees seem to display the dull grey/green that seems to be typical when PP3 is used outdoors BUT I'm not there, you are!! It would be nice to know if your footage compared to an "eyeball" or digital photo of the scene actually look much the same.

I shot a wedding on PP2 yesterday (yeah I know it's a "stills" profile) but I read that PP1, PP2 and default are all much the same ..PP2 colour is also quite heavy in saturation and the colours are pretty vibrant BUT contrasty ... I found that CineTone seems to push contrast high!! My wedding was in brilliant sunshine and deep shadow and the contrast was definately over the top. PP3 is definately brilliant for all indoor work but I'm still looking for a nice outdoor profile that isn't too contrasty... I will definately pop your settings into my camera and have a look at my sort of footage.

Thanks for sharing

Chris

[Dan Eskelson]

Hi Chris,

I did not compare to a still shot, but to my eyeball, color is extremely close to natural...that is what impressed me about this profile. On my system, the green of the evergreens is definitely that, with little, if any gray cast. Color looks very close on both my monitors.

The modified PP3 from AbelCine is nice also, but perhaps not as good in shade...yesterday the sun was playing hide and seek with the clouds - will try again under more uniform conditions.

Let me know how this works out and if you come up with the "ideal" profile.

Dan