Pre-Purchase Questions

James Manford · January 13th, 2013, 02:00 AM

Fantastic video.

Looks spot on.

I desperately want to buy this and have actually put money aside. But I fear either Sony will release a refined version i.e. EA70 like they did with the VG10 / VG20.

OR

I want the EA50k the bare bones version to arrive in Europe. So I can buy it and use my existing E mount lenses which I own with my VG20.

What to do, what to do ...

Noa Put · January 13th, 2013, 03:57 AM

Quote:

But I fear either Sony will release a refined version i.e. EA70 like they did with the VG10 / VG20.

I heared there will be a 4:4:4 8k sony nex ea version released in many years so maybe it would be better to wait for that? Just kidding :) There will always be something better around the corner and each new model is still not perfect so by then you might still have doubts buying it.

If you want better videoquality, get the fs100, if you can't afford it, get the ea50 and work around it's shortcomings. That's what many have been doing with the 5DII and just look what great video's are out there done with this camera but not every one which again shows it is the guy behind the camera that makes the difference.

James Manford · January 13th, 2013, 04:17 AM

Couldn't agree with you more.

This is why I desperately want the bare bones version. I can't justify spending nearly £3000 when a used FS100 can be had for this much on ebay.

However, if I could may be get a EA50 around the £2000 mark, then I would buy it. It's basically what I already have (VG20) but in a better body.

Atleast with a FS100, I know I have bought myself a new body aswell as better video quality.

Noa Put · January 13th, 2013, 04:24 AM

That I can understand that you want the body only which would save you quite a lot if you already have the lenzes, Is Sony not providing this camera as body only?

Steven Digges · January 13th, 2013, 06:41 PM

James,

We all ask ourselves how soon is the upgraded version coming? For me, I do not worry about it too much. But one thing I do like to do to combat that is buy new releases. This is that chance. Look how few of us on this forum have the camera in hand. I know that is not scientific and I know only a small percentage of readers even post but right now I think there are only 7 of us actively posting our experiences with this new camera. I buy and never look back.

Steve

Chris Harding · January 13th, 2013, 07:27 PM

Hi Steve

Absolutely! There are times where you really just need to be impulsive and either say yes or no..apart from the redundancy factor, you might also hesitate as to whether the price might get better or worse or if the camera might have an annoying condition that might not suit you. I don't think there are any perfect cameras out there so there will always be workarounds you have to contend with.

I bought the EA-50 because I liked the form factor mainly..my Panasonics so a really good job and they are a lot cheaper too (they also have workarounds especially in low light) However the main thing with the Sony is that it's easier to carry and use and it's also lighter so for an old guy like me that was enough to decide on one. So far I have only bought one and I'm sharing jobs with the two Pannys as I know they work well... later I might dump the Pannys and get a second Sony.

The only real way you will ever know if it was a good decision is to actually get one...at the very worst you could always sell it and revert back to what you had before.

Chris

Noa Put · January 14th, 2013, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Digges

I buy and never look back.

Same here, this is the first time I buy a model where there was hardly no user feedback to be found about but the first images I did see appear, like the review from Alistar Chapman and the "Pepephon" video on vimeo did give me more confidence the camera would produce images I would be happy with.
So I took the plunge and then just try to make the best of it.

Rick Miller · January 16th, 2013, 05:07 PM

Might be a little bit off the topic from what I originally posted,, but camera related. I edit in Premiere Pro 6.0, and currently shoot on HD tapes on my FX-1. Then capure in HD, edit in HD, no problems. However, sometimes I have to deliver final product on SD DVD'S. This is a MAJOR problem - converting HD to SD for DVD delivery really degrades the quality. There are many posts on various message boards about this issue, with no real solution. Fields, Progressive, Interlaced, etc. all come into play, way over my head. There is a manual workaround process floating around with scripts, but cannot believe this is neccessary.

My question in regards to the EA50 - is there a shooting setting on the EA50 that will allow me to shoot in HD, edit in HD, and then be able to convert to SD without this quality degrade issue?

Noa Put · January 16th, 2013, 05:11 PM

If you transcode from HD to SD there is always image degradation and it doesn't matter which camera you would use, question is how much degradation you have. Can you post a frame grab showing the extent of the problem and can you explain your workflow?

Chris Harding · January 16th, 2013, 05:19 PM

Hi Rick

There are many downconvert methods using various NLE's but most involve multiple renders and are extremely time consuming. From a business POV I cannot spend hours and hours squeezing that tiny bit of extra quality that the client won't see anyway!!
I settled for shooting in 50i and then in Sony Vegas I simply render down to MPEG2 for the DVD...for me this gives better results than shooting in SD but I haven't yet tried the Sony. I have watched my own wedding DVD's on client's huge screen TV's and they look awesome even though they are SD!!

We tend to get way to technical about quality that the client will seldom see (and often cannot even see) If they want SD they must expect a loss but none would even notice the small res loss!!!

Chris

Rick Miller · January 16th, 2013, 06:19 PM

This isn't the typical lower quality of an SD image compared to a HD image. I used to just shoot and edit in SD only and compared those DVD's to my new one, and it is much lower quality than those SD edited DVD's. It is really noticeable on graphics, like a credit roll. Also, same everything on preparing the DVD as far as video bitrate, so that is not the issue.

It is really a hassle, and is an issue that has been brought up numerous times. Summary is Premiere, Final Cut, etc. all do a poor job on the downconversion to DVD. I'm just wondering if the newer cameras shoot differently than my FX-1, as far as handling this issue. Maybe it is a setting on the camera as far as interlaced or progressive, 1280 or 1440, etc.?

I'm not at the office right now to post an image, but this link shows exactly what the issue is, with some frame grabs. This is a couple years old, but problem still occurs in Premiere 6.0.

HD to SD DVD – Best Methods | Precomposed | Blu-Ray and DVD Authoring and Packaging Solutions

Ron Evans · January 16th, 2013, 07:14 PM

Rick downscaling method used and the data rate are really important. I use TMPGenc to do the downscaling and encoding for DVD. This is the current version The Best Software Encoder | TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 5 Product Overview. I edit in Edius export a HQ file then get TMPGenc to downscale and encode for SD DVD since all my project are around 2 hours in length I always use 2 pass VBR. Noticably better picture quality than Vegas or CS6 encode which I also have on the PC. Anton's site has some really useful tutorials mainly for Edius but applicable to other uses TmpgEnc Video Mastering Works 5 Tutorial for downscaling EDIUS HD to SD as although this example uses a Edius HQ file it could be any HD file really.

Ron Evans

Eric Olson · January 16th, 2013, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Miller

I used to just shoot and edit in SD only and compared those DVD's to my new one, and it is much lower quality than those SD edited DVD's.

Sharp HD images are more difficult to downconvert to SD than blurry ones, however, HD images with artificial detail caused by aliasing are very difficult to downconvert to SD.

Any camera setting that reduces aliasing will make the footage easier to downconvert. Since interlaced footage often has more aliasing, shooting in 1280x720p60 often helps. Also try adjusting sharpness, coring and detail settings to reduce aliasing.

The secret behind Dan Isaacs HD to SD Best Methods is an algorithm that turns the aliasing present in interlaced HD video into clean progressive video which can then be converted to high-quality interlaced SD video. This technique, based on neural networks, yields noticably better results than the methods used by many commerical NLEs.

A good HD to SD workflow may be more important for a large-sensor camera such as the EA50 than many others. Still, once a good workflow has been figured out, it can be used over and over.

Steven Digges · January 16th, 2013, 09:34 PM

Rick,

As mentioned some of us get too technical some times. I don't believe that is your case. In a previous post I believe you stated something like "I just put HD tapes in my FX-1 and it shoots HD. The EA50 has so many formats that I do not know what to use".

At the beginning of every conversation with a client about THEIR video I ask what is it going to be used for? What format do they want it delivered on and do they want SD or HD? Just because we video guys love HD that does not mean everyone does. The answer varys from knowledgeable clients with exact broadcast standards that must be met to clients that still want a SD DVD and that is all they want. If DVDs are going to be broadly distributed that is often the way to go. Not everyone has a Blu Ray player in their living room.

If you are delivering SD DVDs and that is ALL it will ever be used for why are you shooting in HD and causing yourself all the complications. Learning your formats and shooting appropriately can save you a lot of work and grief.

Steve

Rick Miller · January 17th, 2013, 08:09 AM

Thanks for the responses. Ron, I'm gonna try TMPGenc out, sounds like it will help.

Steve - yes, I'm not too technical when it comes to this, but having to learn with all the new formats out there. The reason I would like to edit in HD rather in SD is because some of my clients want the final product online in HD, like on Vimeo or YouTube, in addition to the DVD's. Also, I like to place those videos on my demo site, and obviously would like to show off the quality in HD rather than SD,

As far as the suggestion of just shooting in SD, I could do that I guess. Question - I currently shoot in HD on my FX-1, and up to a couple months ago, downconverted the capture to SD. If I get the EA50, can I somehow shoot in HD, then downconvert before the edit? That way I have an HD quality copy of all my raw footage (like I do with my FX-1 on the HD tapes).

January 13th, 2013, 02:00 AM	#16
James Manford Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,393	Re: Pre-Purchase Questions Fantastic video. Looks spot on. I desperately want to buy this and have actually put money aside. But I fear either Sony will release a refined version i.e. EA70 like they did with the VG10 / VG20. OR I want the EA50k the bare bones version to arrive in Europe. So I can buy it and use my existing E mount lenses which I own with my VG20. What to do, what to do ...

January 13th, 2013, 04:17 AM	#18
James Manford Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,393	Re: Pre-Purchase Questions Couldn't agree with you more. This is why I desperately want the bare bones version. I can't justify spending nearly £3000 when a used FS100 can be had for this much on ebay. However, if I could may be get a EA50 around the £2000 mark, then I would buy it. It's basically what I already have (VG20) but in a better body. Atleast with a FS100, I know I have bought myself a new body aswell as better video quality.

January 13th, 2013, 04:24 AM	#19
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Pre-Purchase Questions That I can understand that you want the body only which would save you quite a lot if you already have the lenzes, Is Sony not providing this camera as body only?

January 13th, 2013, 06:41 PM	#20
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Pre-Purchase Questions James, We all ask ourselves how soon is the upgraded version coming? For me, I do not worry about it too much. But one thing I do like to do to combat that is buy new releases. This is that chance. Look how few of us on this forum have the camera in hand. I know that is not scientific and I know only a small percentage of readers even post but right now I think there are only 7 of us actively posting our experiences with this new camera. I buy and never look back. Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

January 13th, 2013, 07:27 PM	#21
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Pre-Purchase Questions Hi Steve Absolutely! There are times where you really just need to be impulsive and either say yes or no..apart from the redundancy factor, you might also hesitate as to whether the price might get better or worse or if the camera might have an annoying condition that might not suit you. I don't think there are any perfect cameras out there so there will always be workarounds you have to contend with. I bought the EA-50 because I liked the form factor mainly..my Panasonics so a really good job and they are a lot cheaper too (they also have workarounds especially in low light) However the main thing with the Sony is that it's easier to carry and use and it's also lighter so for an old guy like me that was enough to decide on one. So far I have only bought one and I'm sharing jobs with the two Pannys as I know they work well... later I might dump the Pannys and get a second Sony. The only real way you will ever know if it was a good decision is to actually get one...at the very worst you could always sell it and revert back to what you had before. Chris

January 16th, 2013, 05:07 PM	#23
Rick Miller Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: stuart, florida Posts: 76	Re: Pre-Purchase Questions Might be a little bit off the topic from what I originally posted,, but camera related. I edit in Premiere Pro 6.0, and currently shoot on HD tapes on my FX-1. Then capure in HD, edit in HD, no problems. However, sometimes I have to deliver final product on SD DVD'S. This is a MAJOR problem - converting HD to SD for DVD delivery really degrades the quality. There are many posts on various message boards about this issue, with no real solution. Fields, Progressive, Interlaced, etc. all come into play, way over my head. There is a manual workaround process floating around with scripts, but cannot believe this is neccessary. My question in regards to the EA50 - is there a shooting setting on the EA50 that will allow me to shoot in HD, edit in HD, and then be able to convert to SD without this quality degrade issue?

January 16th, 2013, 05:11 PM	#24
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Pre-Purchase Questions If you transcode from HD to SD there is always image degradation and it doesn't matter which camera you would use, question is how much degradation you have. Can you post a frame grab showing the extent of the problem and can you explain your workflow?

January 16th, 2013, 05:19 PM	#25
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Pre-Purchase Questions Hi Rick There are many downconvert methods using various NLE's but most involve multiple renders and are extremely time consuming. From a business POV I cannot spend hours and hours squeezing that tiny bit of extra quality that the client won't see anyway!! I settled for shooting in 50i and then in Sony Vegas I simply render down to MPEG2 for the DVD...for me this gives better results than shooting in SD but I haven't yet tried the Sony. I have watched my own wedding DVD's on client's huge screen TV's and they look awesome even though they are SD!! We tend to get way to technical about quality that the client will seldom see (and often cannot even see) If they want SD they must expect a loss but none would even notice the small res loss!!! Chris

January 16th, 2013, 06:19 PM	#26
Rick Miller Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: stuart, florida Posts: 76	Re: Pre-Purchase Questions This isn't the typical lower quality of an SD image compared to a HD image. I used to just shoot and edit in SD only and compared those DVD's to my new one, and it is much lower quality than those SD edited DVD's. It is really noticeable on graphics, like a credit roll. Also, same everything on preparing the DVD as far as video bitrate, so that is not the issue. It is really a hassle, and is an issue that has been brought up numerous times. Summary is Premiere, Final Cut, etc. all do a poor job on the downconversion to DVD. I'm just wondering if the newer cameras shoot differently than my FX-1, as far as handling this issue. Maybe it is a setting on the camera as far as interlaced or progressive, 1280 or 1440, etc.? I'm not at the office right now to post an image, but this link shows exactly what the issue is, with some frame grabs. This is a couple years old, but problem still occurs in Premiere 6.0. HD to SD DVD – Best Methods \| Precomposed \| Blu-Ray and DVD Authoring and Packaging Solutions

January 16th, 2013, 07:14 PM	#27
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,222	Re: Pre-Purchase Questions Rick downscaling method used and the data rate are really important. I use TMPGenc to do the downscaling and encoding for DVD. This is the current version The Best Software Encoder \| TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 5 Product Overview. I edit in Edius export a HQ file then get TMPGenc to downscale and encode for SD DVD since all my project are around 2 hours in length I always use 2 pass VBR. Noticably better picture quality than Vegas or CS6 encode which I also have on the PC. Anton's site has some really useful tutorials mainly for Edius but applicable to other uses TmpgEnc Video Mastering Works 5 Tutorial for downscaling EDIUS HD to SD as although this example uses a Edius HQ file it could be any HD file really. Ron Evans

January 16th, 2013, 09:34 PM	#29
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Pre-Purchase Questions Rick, As mentioned some of us get too technical some times. I don't believe that is your case. In a previous post I believe you stated something like "I just put HD tapes in my FX-1 and it shoots HD. The EA50 has so many formats that I do not know what to use". At the beginning of every conversation with a client about THEIR video I ask what is it going to be used for? What format do they want it delivered on and do they want SD or HD? Just because we video guys love HD that does not mean everyone does. The answer varys from knowledgeable clients with exact broadcast standards that must be met to clients that still want a SD DVD and that is all they want. If DVDs are going to be broadly distributed that is often the way to go. Not everyone has a Blu Ray player in their living room. If you are delivering SD DVDs and that is ALL it will ever be used for why are you shooting in HD and causing yourself all the complications. Learning your formats and shooting appropriately can save you a lot of work and grief. Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

January 17th, 2013, 08:09 AM	#30
Rick Miller Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: stuart, florida Posts: 76	Re: Pre-Purchase Questions Thanks for the responses. Ron, I'm gonna try TMPGenc out, sounds like it will help. Steve - yes, I'm not too technical when it comes to this, but having to learn with all the new formats out there. The reason I would like to edit in HD rather in SD is because some of my clients want the final product online in HD, like on Vimeo or YouTube, in addition to the DVD's. Also, I like to place those videos on my demo site, and obviously would like to show off the quality in HD rather than SD, As far as the suggestion of just shooting in SD, I could do that I guess. Question - I currently shoot in HD on my FX-1, and up to a couple months ago, downconverted the capture to SD. If I get the EA50, can I somehow shoot in HD, then downconvert before the edit? That way I have an HD quality copy of all my raw footage (like I do with my FX-1 on the HD tapes).