New Sony NEX-EA50EH Announcement

Alister Chapman · November 25th, 2012, 04:08 AM

All these DSLR sensor based camcorders and DSLR's themselves are missing one absolutely critical function when it comes to get ParFocal operation: Back Focus adjustment.

As DSLR lenses don't have back focus adjustment it must be done on the camera. The F3 is the lowest cost s35mm camera with this ability. Without a means to adjust and correct for manufacturing tolerances, ear and tear, temperature etc it will be near impossible to get a lens completely par focal unless you want to start adding shims.

I found the EA50 to be 1.5 stops less sensitive than the FS100 for similar noise.

Noa Put · November 25th, 2012, 05:18 AM

Alister, did you have to opportunity to compare the EA50 to Sony's full frame VG900 and how both compare imagewise? From what I read in your review you are impressed with the EA50 while others have nothing good to say about the vg900, I know they are different camera's but they are both large sensor camera's from the same supplier in the same price range and with the vg900 even being a full frame sensor I find it strange that it would perform that much worse?

Werner Graf · November 25th, 2012, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

Alister, did you have to opportunity to compare the EA50 to Sony's full frame VG900 and how both compare imagewise?

OMG the VG 900 is crappy in Videmode to much trown away Pixel
Alaising like hell and Chromatic Abberation

more camcorders german test with more camcorders the VG900
http://www.slashcam.de/news/single/D...-We-10281.html

and weeping here...
http://www.palsomedia.com/vg900/

Alister Chapman · November 25th, 2012, 09:14 AM

I have not tested the VG900 so can't comment. I was pleasantly surprised by the EA50. I thought it did a very good job for a camera based around a stills sensor.

Stephen Gradin · November 25th, 2012, 12:54 PM

From what I am reading here, Sony seems to have dropped the ball when it comes the EA50's low light capabilities, something crucial to me for weddings and other low light events. Unless I hear positive feedback on this front, I will wait till NAB in April to see if perhaps Sony updates the FS100 or comes out with yet another camera that may merge the best aspects of the EA50 and the FS100. We'll see.

Alister Chapman · November 25th, 2012, 01:21 PM

Sony haven't dropped the ball at all, the reduced low light performance is simply the result of using a sensor with smaller pixels. When you use a sensor designed for high resolution stills, compared to a dedicated HD or even 4K video sensor the pixels will be much smaller and thus the camera will be less sensitive. The EA50 is built to a price point and a big part of the saving comes from using technology and parts from the mass consumer market. The EA50 is still better in low light than most small sensor cameras.

Ron Evans · November 25th, 2012, 01:48 PM

Seems as if Sony took a few things from the NX5U too or the other cameras in the range. Being able to use the FMU128 is good since I use that all the time with my NX5U. I will certainly be interested to see how the low light compares to the NX5U which isn't the greatest in low light. I was looking for an upgrade to my NX5U to improve the noise level in low light to match my consumer cameras, get the touch controls of my CX700 etc and the NEX-EA50 seems to address most of these with the advantage of interchangeable lenses too. ! I am sure it would be possible to make it quite good in low light just not with the stock lens. One built from the FS100 would be better for me as I do not want to take any stills with the camera but I am sure if this was the case the consumer touch features I would like would not be included !!!

Ron Evans

Ron Little · November 25th, 2012, 01:50 PM

How does it compare to a Canon 7d for low light?

James Hobert · November 25th, 2012, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

The EA50 is still better in low light than most small sensor cameras.

Alister, you say "most"... which small sensor camera have better low light performance than EA50?

Besides ergonomics, is there a reason to get this over an FS100 for events? I guess maybe its a bit less expensive and has a servo zoom rocker on the side and handle which is nice. But its also 1.5 stops less sensitive than the FS100 and neither have an ND filter or HDSDI outputs. Oh, but I guess the EA50 also has a "near lossless" digital zoom which would conceivably extend the stock lens to a 400mm one. Hmm. Decisions. I too am starting to hope that come April 2013 at NAB, Sony will hopefully release another option in the similar price range.

Emmanuel Plakiotis · November 25th, 2012, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Hobert

Fascinating comparison of the FS100 vs EA50. However, he mentions that the EA50 requires +9db of gain to reach the sensitivity of the FS100 which "equates it to 3 stops of exposure". I always thought that +6db is one stop so wouldn't that make it 1.5 stops less sensitive instead of 3 stops?? Forgive me, kinda new with some of this math.

copying from Wikipedia:
A change in power ratio by a factor of two is approximately a 3 dB change.

Meaning that one stop equals 3dB and not 6dB as you assume. In general even in sound, a difference of 3dB means either half or double the amount. The initial claim of 3stops between the 2 cameras is valid.

James Hobert · November 27th, 2012, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emmanuel Plakiotis

copying from Wikipedia:
A change in power ratio by a factor of two is approximately a 3 dB change.

Meaning that one stop equals 3dB and not 6dB as you assume. In general even in sound, a difference of 3dB means either half or double the amount. The initial claim of 3stops between the 2 cameras is valid.

It's all very confusing, yes. However, I'm quite sure I'm right in that +6db = 1stop. I read that wiki page you quote...or tried to anyway (ha!), and it may have more to do with audio or when it refers to video its a bit different with "logs" and such. Regardless, however video works and without getting too crazy technical, I'm pretty sure +9db of video gain is 1.5 stops. See this article by video-pro Alister Chapman for reference:

What is ISO and how does it compare to gain? |

Cheers!

Chris Harding · November 27th, 2012, 06:28 PM

Thanks James

So even a two cameras one with a native iso of say 100 and one with one of 300 can produce the same image relative to IQ when noise is taken into account ??? Your ISO 300 camera might start off with a noisy picture yet the lower iso one might be squeaky clean!! The Panasonic AC-90 is a good example..It only has a native ISO of only 40 but you can add 30db of gain and still have a noise free image so the picture can actually look a lot better than a higher ISO camera that has a noisy image!!

Just for reference what is the native ISO of the EA50 with the stock lens???? The specs say "auto ISO" is 160 -1600 so does that mean the native ISO at 0db is 160???

Chris

James Hobert · November 27th, 2012, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

Thanks James

So even a two cameras one with a native iso of say 100 and one with one of 300 can produce the same image relative to IQ when noise is taken into account ??? Your ISO 300 camera might start off with a noisy picture yet the lower iso one might be squeaky clean!! The Panasonic AC-90 is a good example..It only has a native ISO of only 40 but you can add 30db of gain and still have a noise free image so the picture can actually look a lot better than a higher ISO camera that has a noisy image!!

Just for reference what is the native ISO of the EA50 with the stock lens???? The specs say "auto ISO" is 160 -1600 so does that mean the native ISO at 0db is 160???

Chris

Yes, it all comes down to how each camera handles noise at different ISO settings. Some cameras clearly handle gain better than others. I doubt the AC90 is completely noise-free at 30db, but it sounds like it's pretty dang good. Then again I've ready that the EA50 is also fairly noise-free at even higher ISO's. I'm not totally sure but I do believe that the EA50's is at 160 ISO at 0db, yes. Of course the stock lens that is used is the other factor that may drive that sensitivity down but the advantage is that you can switch it out for a faster one if needed. As for the auto iris question, I never use auto settings on cameras (maybe an occasional auto focus) so I'm not 100% certain (I'm saying that a lot these days) but I think that means that if you leave the camera on "auto ISO" it will go up to 1600. But I do know that in video mode, you can push it past that manually up to 5000 or 6400 ISO I believe. If you decide to use the camera to shoot stills it can go above 12000 ISO I believe. Again, this is from memory of what I read in the past but that's how I understand it.

Chris Harding · November 28th, 2012, 05:23 AM

Thanks James

I'd like to know how the EA50 with the stock lens and 12db gain would look like..Admitedly the AC-90 would need 24db to reach the same sensitivity as it's on a native ISO40 so at 24db is would effectively be ISO320 and to get to a 320 ISO the Sony only needs 12db gain BUT the 90 is absolutely squeaky clean at 24db so I would expect the EA50 to perform up to at least 24db with zero noise (double the 90's sensitivity since it costs twice as much!! ) Take a look at the posts on the wedding forum and there is an image there from Tim with the FX1000 and AC-90 side by side ...the 90 is running at 30db gain and it's tough to find much noise at all!!

I guess we will really only discover performances once people actually start using them??? I really do like it's form factor even though it's not really balanced..I'm sure you could hang a battery off the end plus a couple of audio receivers too.

Chris

Tom Roper · November 28th, 2012, 11:21 AM

The explanation for why 3db of gain represents a doubling of power in a loudspeaker yet it takes 6db of gain to represent the doubling of light (1 f-stop) in a camera is that the former is expressing power (P) while the latter is expressing voltage (E). Power is (E^2/R). The R is dropped since we assume output inpedance is equal to input inpedance.

In the former, gain is 10 log (Pin/Pout) db. In the latter, gain is 10 log (Eout/Ein)^2 db, which reduces to 20 log (Eout/Ein) db.

Therefore, 6db equals 1 f-stop.

November 25th, 2012, 04:08 AM	#136
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	re: New Sony NEX-EA50EH Announcement All these DSLR sensor based camcorders and DSLR's themselves are missing one absolutely critical function when it comes to get ParFocal operation: Back Focus adjustment. As DSLR lenses don't have back focus adjustment it must be done on the camera. The F3 is the lowest cost s35mm camera with this ability. Without a means to adjust and correct for manufacturing tolerances, ear and tear, temperature etc it will be near impossible to get a lens completely par focal unless you want to start adding shims. I found the EA50 to be 1.5 stops less sensitive than the FS100 for similar noise. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

November 25th, 2012, 05:18 AM	#137
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	re: New Sony NEX-EA50EH Announcement Alister, did you have to opportunity to compare the EA50 to Sony's full frame VG900 and how both compare imagewise? From what I read in your review you are impressed with the EA50 while others have nothing good to say about the vg900, I know they are different camera's but they are both large sensor camera's from the same supplier in the same price range and with the vg900 even being a full frame sensor I find it strange that it would perform that much worse?

November 25th, 2012, 09:14 AM	#139
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	re: New Sony NEX-EA50EH Announcement I have not tested the VG900 so can't comment. I was pleasantly surprised by the EA50. I thought it did a very good job for a camera based around a stills sensor. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

November 25th, 2012, 12:54 PM	#140
Stephen Gradin Contributor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Nottingham, MD Posts: 66	re: New Sony NEX-EA50EH Announcement From what I am reading here, Sony seems to have dropped the ball when it comes the EA50's low light capabilities, something crucial to me for weddings and other low light events. Unless I hear positive feedback on this front, I will wait till NAB in April to see if perhaps Sony updates the FS100 or comes out with yet another camera that may merge the best aspects of the EA50 and the FS100. We'll see. __________________ Stephen Gradin Dockside Video Productions

November 25th, 2012, 01:21 PM	#141
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	re: New Sony NEX-EA50EH Announcement Sony haven't dropped the ball at all, the reduced low light performance is simply the result of using a sensor with smaller pixels. When you use a sensor designed for high resolution stills, compared to a dedicated HD or even 4K video sensor the pixels will be much smaller and thus the camera will be less sensitive. The EA50 is built to a price point and a big part of the saving comes from using technology and parts from the mass consumer market. The EA50 is still better in low light than most small sensor cameras. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

November 25th, 2012, 01:48 PM	#142
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,222	!! Seems as if Sony took a few things from the NX5U too or the other cameras in the range. Being able to use the FMU128 is good since I use that all the time with my NX5U. I will certainly be interested to see how the low light compares to the NX5U which isn't the greatest in low light. I was looking for an upgrade to my NX5U to improve the noise level in low light to match my consumer cameras, get the touch controls of my CX700 etc and the NEX-EA50 seems to address most of these with the advantage of interchangeable lenses too. ! I am sure it would be possible to make it quite good in low light just not with the stock lens. One built from the FS100 would be better for me as I do not want to take any stills with the camera but I am sure if this was the case the consumer touch features I would like would not be included !!! Ron Evans

November 25th, 2012, 01:50 PM	#143
Ron Little Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pensacola Fl. Posts: 627	re: New Sony NEX-EA50EH Announcement How does it compare to a Canon 7d for low light?

November 27th, 2012, 06:28 PM	#147
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	re: New Sony NEX-EA50EH Announcement Thanks James So even a two cameras one with a native iso of say 100 and one with one of 300 can produce the same image relative to IQ when noise is taken into account ??? Your ISO 300 camera might start off with a noisy picture yet the lower iso one might be squeaky clean!! The Panasonic AC-90 is a good example..It only has a native ISO of only 40 but you can add 30db of gain and still have a noise free image so the picture can actually look a lot better than a higher ISO camera that has a noisy image!! Just for reference what is the native ISO of the EA50 with the stock lens???? The specs say "auto ISO" is 160 -1600 so does that mean the native ISO at 0db is 160??? Chris

November 28th, 2012, 05:23 AM	#149
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	re: New Sony NEX-EA50EH Announcement Thanks James I'd like to know how the EA50 with the stock lens and 12db gain would look like..Admitedly the AC-90 would need 24db to reach the same sensitivity as it's on a native ISO40 so at 24db is would effectively be ISO320 and to get to a 320 ISO the Sony only needs 12db gain BUT the 90 is absolutely squeaky clean at 24db so I would expect the EA50 to perform up to at least 24db with zero noise (double the 90's sensitivity since it costs twice as much!! ) Take a look at the posts on the wedding forum and there is an image there from Tim with the FX1000 and AC-90 side by side ...the 90 is running at 30db gain and it's tough to find much noise at all!! I guess we will really only discover performances once people actually start using them??? I really do like it's form factor even though it's not really balanced..I'm sure you could hang a battery off the end plus a couple of audio receivers too. Chris

November 28th, 2012, 11:21 AM	#150
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	re: New Sony NEX-EA50EH Announcement The explanation for why 3db of gain represents a doubling of power in a loudspeaker yet it takes 6db of gain to represent the doubling of light (1 f-stop) in a camera is that the former is expressing power (P) while the latter is expressing voltage (E). Power is (E^2/R). The R is dropped since we assume output inpedance is equal to input inpedance. In the former, gain is 10 log (Pin/Pout) db. In the latter, gain is 10 log (Eout/Ein)^2 db, which reduces to 20 log (Eout/Ein) db. Therefore, 6db equals 1 f-stop.