CF card 15 frame drop outs between 4 gig segments at DVinfo.net

Keith Forman · May 11th, 2008, 07:45 PM

I've noticed that when using the CF cards that there is about a 15 frame loss between the 4 gig segments (60i HDV). This occurs with the Transend card and the Sandisk CF card that I have. This does not appear to be a speed of the card issue becuase there are no other drop outs.

FAT32 limits the card segments to 4 gigs which makes it understandable why there is this size limit.

This half second drop out is very bothersome because when I shoot with two camera, I lose sync every 22 minutes and have to resync--not to mention the other issues related to this problem.

Anyone else have this problem or have any information on this?

kdbf

Steve Mullen · May 14th, 2008, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Forman

I've noticed that when using the CF cards that there is about a 15 frame loss between the 4 gig segments (60i HDV).

If others are finding this -- it certainly argues for using 4GB cards so at least you avoid this problem. (And, can be burned to DVD.) On the other hand, with a larger card, one might get lucky several. :)

What I don't get is given the overwheming, IMHO, advantages of tape, why are folks even bothering with SD cards?

I might be more wowed by cards if there wasn't a extra box to attach to the camcorder. Or, if the camcorder had two built-in slots. Seems like the whole SD cards deal was an after-thought.

Modern NLE suck in a whole tape in an hour. Is anyone in that big of a hurry to start editing? I mean hard news used to be shot on film! Decades of breaking news was shot on tape!

Until I can shoot an hour on a card that costs $15 -- I can't see why I'd bother to get burn an achieve DVD -- all before I erased a card.

What am I missing?

Zach Love · May 14th, 2008, 03:23 AM

CF & tape record. tape back up on the shelf & you don't put more hours on your tape heads when you transfer (aka capture) CF footage to your NLE.

personally I think this is the way to go if you need to save footage. shooting an hour of footage & then waiting an hour to edit really slows me down.

I've worked in news & while I love working on NLEs, many things that I edited tape to tape would have taken at least 50%-100% longer if I had to capture all my footage to a hard drive

as too the 15 frame drop, that really stinks & should ("should" as in they 'should,' not that they 100% 'will') be fixed by Sony, but for now that is what the tape is for

if you really want to be shooing only on cards, well easy... sell your Z7U & buy an EX1 or HVX-200

Giroud Francois · May 14th, 2008, 04:16 AM

usually i take the time of capture to look at the picture, so when capture is over, i got a pretty nice idea of what i got.
blindly transfer files on a computer and spending hours to derush them is pretty the same time.

Chris Medico · May 14th, 2008, 04:32 AM

Have you read what is happening with the Canon HG cameras?

I don't have a Z7 but I wonder if the problem similar to what is happening with the Canon HG cameras when they span multiple 2gig files. They have found if you do a binary copy and join of the files from the command line in Windows that the glitches disappear.

It might be worth a try to see if this is a work-around for the Z7.

Read the first post here

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=113083

In post #16 they start talking about joining the files through a binary copy in windows.

I hope it helps.

Laurence Kingston · May 14th, 2008, 06:13 AM

Are you using the Sony transfer utility to rejoin the clips? This utility transfers the clips, rejoining any that go over the maximum fat32 four gig limit while it transfers:

http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/Show...=1198162909729

Keith Forman · May 14th, 2008, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Medico

Have you read what is happening with the Canon HG cameras?

I don't have a Z7 but I wonder if the problem similar to what is happening with the Canon HG cameras when they span multiple 2gig files. They have found if you do a binary copy and join of the files from the command line in Windows that the glitches disappear.

It might be worth a try to see if this is a work-around for the Z7.

Read the first post here

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=113083

In post #16 they start talking about joining the files through a binary copy in windows.

I hope it helps.

Sony has suggested that I use the "M2T connection tool" but I can not get it to work. It does not see any m2t files at all (no idea why). However Sony no longer supports this utility and in fact does not make it available to the public anymore.

Has anyone else had this problem with the drop outs between 4 gig segments?

KDBF

Keith Forman · May 14th, 2008, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laurence Kingston

Are you using the Sony transfer utility to rejoin the clips? This utility transfers the clips, rejoining any that go over the maximum fat32 four gig limit while it transfers:

http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/Show...=1198162909729

That software is for the HVR-DR60 not for the HVR-MRC1 unit and does not work with the later.

kdbf

Laurence Kingston · May 14th, 2008, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Forman

That software is for the HVR-DR60 not for the HVR-MRC1 unit and does not work with the later.

kdbf

It's for both. I use it myself so I'm really sure of this. It stitches any split clips back together while it transfers and should fix your problem.

Keith Forman · May 14th, 2008, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laurence Kingston

It's for both. I use it myself so I'm really sure of this. It stitches any split clips back together while it transfers and should fix your problem.

You might be correct but I have not had any ability to see anything other than the HVR-DR60 unit with the Recording Unit Utility Software software.

kdbf

Chris Medico · May 14th, 2008, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Forman

Sony has suggested that I use the "M2T connection tool" but I can not get it to work. It does not see any m2t files at all (no idea why). However Sony no longer supports this utility and in fact does not make it available to the public anymore.

Has anyone else had this problem with the drop outs between 4 gig segments?

KDBF

Yea, I know. Please try the binary copy and join trick. Let us know if it works. I suspect it will solve your problem.

Chris

Laurence Kingston · May 14th, 2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Forman

You might be correct but I have not had any ability to see anything other than the HVR-DR60 unit with the Recording Unit Utility Software software.

kdbf

The utility should be able to see the files off of any fat32 device. For instance, it will work off a CF card reader with the Z7 memory card. When you scan the drive you will get a list of clips and you can select HDV, DV or both. Any video section that is long enough to be split across a couple of clips will be shown as a single video with two or more parts. I can't see why it wouldn't work for you.

Keith Forman · May 14th, 2008, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laurence Kingston

The utility should be able to see the files off of any fat32 device. For instance, it will work off a CF card reader with the Z7 memory card. When you scan the drive you will get a list of clips and you can select HDV, DV or both. Any video section that is long enough to be split across a couple of clips will be shown as a single video with two or more parts. I can't see why it wouldn't work for you.

I still can't get either Sony utility to see any files.

PROBLEM WITH THE DROP OUTS UPDATE: Sony thinks the problem has to do with the GOFs. I tried it in Adobe Premier and the 15 frames seem to be there. Vegas for some reason has the drop outs (which is strange since it should be the most compatible NLE with the Z7).

Laurence Kingston · May 14th, 2008, 04:13 PM

The Sony transfer utility should see any FAT32 device you connect to your system. It shouldn't matter what it is beyond being FAT32 and having the clips in the appropriately named folders (as of the Sony naming conventions). It is really strange that you can't use this.

Dave Blackhurst · May 14th, 2008, 11:25 PM

FWIW, I've had enormous trouble with finding anything that reads 8G cards from a CX7 other than using the camera - only one of my computers has a reader that will work correctly, and I can attest you absolutely need the Sony utility to restitch the long clips back together correctly, although I suspect the binary method will work but haven't tried it.

Sounds rather similar as the files are unreadable unless stitched (the Canon files had a short gap like you describe), even though they are 100% fine when in playback on the camcorder.

You may want to look into uninstalling the utility and reinstalling, and see if there are any updates as well - both were needed for me to get my CX7 working (yeah, I know, different cam, but the tapeless workflow is similar)

And for the poster wondering about tapeless convenience - shooting multicam...

30 minute event = hour and a half + to dump tape, 30 minutes tops with MS/card dump - you're editing before the first tape would be ingested. I think you may be trading off in render time, but I like to let my machine render while I sleep or do somethig else, and if I start editing an hour earlier...

May 14th, 2008, 04:32 AM	#5
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Have you read what is happening with the Canon HG cameras? I don't have a Z7 but I wonder if the problem similar to what is happening with the Canon HG cameras when they span multiple 2gig files. They have found if you do a binary copy and join of the files from the command line in Windows that the glitches disappear. It might be worth a try to see if this is a work-around for the Z7. Read the first post here http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=113083 In post #16 they start talking about joining the files through a binary copy in windows. I hope it helps. __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com

May 11th, 2008, 07:45 PM	#1
Keith Forman Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Williamstown Mass Posts: 192	CF card 15 frame drop outs between 4 gig segments I've noticed that when using the CF cards that there is about a 15 frame loss between the 4 gig segments (60i HDV). This occurs with the Transend card and the Sandisk CF card that I have. This does not appear to be a speed of the card issue becuase there are no other drop outs. FAT32 limits the card segments to 4 gigs which makes it understandable why there is this size limit. This half second drop out is very bothersome because when I shoot with two camera, I lose sync every 22 minutes and have to resync--not to mention the other issues related to this problem. Anyone else have this problem or have any information on this? kdbf

May 14th, 2008, 03:23 AM	#3
Zach Love Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 944	CF & tape record. tape back up on the shelf & you don't put more hours on your tape heads when you transfer (aka capture) CF footage to your NLE. personally I think this is the way to go if you need to save footage. shooting an hour of footage & then waiting an hour to edit really slows me down. I've worked in news & while I love working on NLEs, many things that I edited tape to tape would have taken at least 50%-100% longer if I had to capture all my footage to a hard drive as too the 15 frame drop, that really stinks & should ("should" as in they 'should,' not that they 100% 'will') be fixed by Sony, but for now that is what the tape is for if you really want to be shooing only on cards, well easy... sell your Z7U & buy an EX1 or HVX-200

May 14th, 2008, 04:16 AM	#4
Giroud Francois Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: switzerland Posts: 2,133	usually i take the time of capture to look at the picture, so when capture is over, i got a pretty nice idea of what i got. blindly transfer files on a computer and spending hours to derush them is pretty the same time.

May 14th, 2008, 06:13 AM	#6
Laurence Kingston Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Clermont, FL. Posts: 941	Are you using the Sony transfer utility to rejoin the clips? This utility transfers the clips, rejoining any that go over the maximum fat32 four gig limit while it transfers: http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/Show...=1198162909729

May 14th, 2008, 04:13 PM	#14
Laurence Kingston Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Clermont, FL. Posts: 941	The Sony transfer utility should see any FAT32 device you connect to your system. It shouldn't matter what it is beyond being FAT32 and having the clips in the appropriately named folders (as of the Sony naming conventions). It is really strange that you can't use this.

May 14th, 2008, 11:25 PM	#15
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	FWIW, I've had enormous trouble with finding anything that reads 8G cards from a CX7 other than using the camera - only one of my computers has a reader that will work correctly, and I can attest you absolutely need the Sony utility to restitch the long clips back together correctly, although I suspect the binary method will work but haven't tried it. Sounds rather similar as the files are unreadable unless stitched (the Canon files had a short gap like you describe), even though they are 100% fine when in playback on the camcorder. You may want to look into uninstalling the utility and reinstalling, and see if there are any updates as well - both were needed for me to get my CX7 working (yeah, I know, different cam, but the tapeless workflow is similar) And for the poster wondering about tapeless convenience - shooting multicam... 30 minute event = hour and a half + to dump tape, 30 minutes tops with MS/card dump - you're editing before the first tape would be ingested. I think you may be trading off in render time, but I like to let my machine render while I sleep or do somethig else, and if I start editing an hour earlier...