Z7U or EX1...tough decision.

Laurence Kingston · February 15th, 2008, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oki Russell

It's clear now that EX1 features true 1920x1080 HD sensors, whilst Z7 employs some sort of anamorphic cheating.

Well even the most expensive CineAlta HD line employs this "anamorphic cheating", so it can't be all that bad! ;-)

Tom Hardwick · February 15th, 2008, 02:18 PM

Yes, my comment is that the Z7 isn't cheating in the slightest - it's a camcorder that follows the HDV specification to the letter.

Oki Russell · February 16th, 2008, 05:36 AM

True 1920x1080 HD is very compelling feature, because I shoot mainly in progressive mode, and that is where you can point at sight, whether is it a true HD or anamorphic cheating (or some kind of compromise, if this suits you better, Tom).

But what bothers me is the rather unacceptable noise level (54dB S/N is very pure performance indeed). So, what causes that noise: EXIMOR sensor itself or cheap signal processor (I heard that Sony guys used 12bit DXP in this model)? Unfortunately, Sony leave us guessing...

And they didn't reveal S/N performance on Z7 at all!

I doubt we can expect any comment from Sony, in particular taking in mind that these cameras were developed by two different teams: Z7 in Japan, and EX1 in US. So, if someone had a grip on both cameras, please comment.

Greg Hartzell · February 16th, 2008, 11:13 AM

Geese, I've seen some pretty amazing stuff come off of an ex1, regardless of signal to noise ratio. You may gaff at the low light levels, or remark on the pore noise floor of the chips, but when it all comes down to it, people who are skilled at making images are going to absolutely love either of these two cameras. And yes, despite any complaint there may be against the z7u or s270, these cameras are going to appeal to a lot users.

Two things that really haven't been discussed here that I think really matter:

The quality of the zeiss lens. Lets hope for something fantastic here.

And since Sony is calling these cams gen3 hdv, I'm hoping for a more robust mpg2 encoder.

If the lens is great, and the encoding is good, added with improved chip technology, then you put enough light into these cameras they are absolutely going to floor people with their image.

Matt Davis · February 16th, 2008, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Hartzell

...The quality of the zeiss lens. Lets hope for something fantastic here... a more robust mpg2 encoder

Don't forget the 'savings' of encoding complexity by shooting progressive rather than interlaced - the 'mouse teeth' in areas of motion are as bad as grain or noise to an MPEG-style encoder.

I've been on record bemoaning the Z1 lens as being soft (in comparison with the HVX and Canon cameras), and whilst I'm sure the EX-1's Fujinon is an absolute peach, I'd settle for a good all-round improvement on the T*.

Greg Hartzell · February 17th, 2008, 03:08 PM

54db s/n ratio seems to be the norm for hd cameras as far as I can tell. Any word on the new lens?

Matt Duke · February 21st, 2008, 07:54 AM

I've been seriously considering the EX1 for the last month or so now, but recently I'm beginning to think that the Z7 could actually be the better option for me, doing weddings and documentaries. It is great with the CF so that I can still do my SDEs but also have a backup on tape, and its also cheaper so I would get a better return on the investment quicker I imagine.

Matt Davis · February 21st, 2008, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Duke

I've been seriously considering the EX1 for the last month or so now, but recently I'm beginning to think that the Z7 could actually be the better option for me, doing weddings and documentaries.

It seems there's a whole bunch of us going through this analysis paralysis. My wife's sick of it. My mates are sick of it. I'm getting pretty tired of it, but it's my money (and lots of it).

Sony, in their infinite wisdom, have made darn sure that there's no clear winner. If the EX-1 did FireWire downconvert to SD DV, or if the Z7 had 1/2" chips, there would be unacceptable cannibalization of sales of its sibling.

Try costing out an EX-1 (with 2x 16GB cards, 2x large batteries) and compare with a similar Z7 with Letus kit, which will out-do the DoF of the EX-1 yet will strip down to a neat run & gun.

Okay, if you were doing work like Phil Bloom (for broadcast), the EX-1 wins because it's NOT HDV, rather than because it IS XDCAM-HD. Compared to a Z1, it's a handheld nightmare, but if you're used to a DSR-450 (and up), it's a peach.

The EX-1 downconvert has been a big downer (groan). I've found a workflow for Progressive PAL, but not Interlaced PAL, and with reference to threads elsewhere, I'll gladly share what works for me, but lack the time and the motivation to nail an NTSC 29.97i method when this Z7 sits there smugly proffering both.

It seems to be as harsh as this: if you and your clients are still in a predominantly SD workflow with interlacing, you're better off with a Z7 for now.

Adam Folickman · February 21st, 2008, 12:25 PM

Laurence,

How are your Transcend and Kingston CF cards working out ?

Laurence Kingston · February 21st, 2008, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Folickman

Laurence,

How are your Transcend and Kingston CF cards working out ?

The both seem to work just fine. I haven't recorded anything substancial. Just tests, but those seem to be fine.

Greg Hartzell · February 25th, 2008, 12:31 AM

This kind of makes me sad. All of this discussion about the z7u vs the ex1 and the thread dries up when sony starts shipment.

No side by side tests? Anybody want to shoot some resolution charts or color charts? Any reports on low light capability?

Tom Hardwick · February 25th, 2008, 02:31 AM

The Z1 has an f/2.8 max aperture at full tele and the Z7 is a stop faster at f/2.

I was quite amused to see him refer to the Z1's lens as 'being .8 better'. It makes me want to take all the test results with a bucket of salt. Make of it what you will.

tom.

Bruce Ostrout · February 25th, 2008, 08:36 AM

.8 better meaning at the telephoto end with the same or similar focal length the Z7 lens does not stop down therefore there is more light available to the sensor. What is wrong with that...? Where are your examples?

Bruce Ostrout · February 25th, 2008, 09:46 AM

I would think they would come up, but I just attached them here. Nothing scientific, just practical test in the exact same lighting. with both cameras at default and in full manual.

Greg Hartzell · February 25th, 2008, 10:41 AM

I don't get it?

Not quite the "test" results I was looking for. Lets hope for a good review.

February 16th, 2008, 05:36 AM	#93
Oki Russell New Boot Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 16	True 1920x1080 HD is very compelling feature, because I shoot mainly in progressive mode, and that is where you can point at sight, whether is it a true HD or anamorphic cheating (or some kind of compromise, if this suits you better, Tom). But what bothers me is the rather unacceptable noise level (54dB S/N is very pure performance indeed). So, what causes that noise: EXIMOR sensor itself or cheap signal processor (I heard that Sony guys used 12bit DXP in this model)? Unfortunately, Sony leave us guessing... And they didn't reveal S/N performance on Z7 at all! I doubt we can expect any comment from Sony, in particular taking in mind that these cameras were developed by two different teams: Z7 in Japan, and EX1 in US. So, if someone had a grip on both cameras, please comment. Last edited by Oki Russell; February 16th, 2008 at 11:03 PM.

February 21st, 2008, 07:54 AM	#97
Matt Duke Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 69	Z7 instead of the EX1 now I've been seriously considering the EX1 for the last month or so now, but recently I'm beginning to think that the Z7 could actually be the better option for me, doing weddings and documentaries. It is great with the CF so that I can still do my SDEs but also have a backup on tape, and its also cheaper so I would get a better return on the investment quicker I imagine.

February 25th, 2008, 09:46 AM	#104
Bruce Ostrout Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Jacksonville Fl Posts: 107	I would think they would come up, but I just attached them here. Nothing scientific, just practical test in the exact same lighting. with both cameras at default and in full manual. Attached Thumbnails

February 15th, 2008, 02:18 PM	#92
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Yes, my comment is that the Z7 isn't cheating in the slightest - it's a camcorder that follows the HDV specification to the letter.

February 16th, 2008, 11:13 AM	#94
Greg Hartzell Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Columbia, CT Posts: 168	Geese, I've seen some pretty amazing stuff come off of an ex1, regardless of signal to noise ratio. You may gaff at the low light levels, or remark on the pore noise floor of the chips, but when it all comes down to it, people who are skilled at making images are going to absolutely love either of these two cameras. And yes, despite any complaint there may be against the z7u or s270, these cameras are going to appeal to a lot users. Two things that really haven't been discussed here that I think really matter: The quality of the zeiss lens. Lets hope for something fantastic here. And since Sony is calling these cams gen3 hdv, I'm hoping for a more robust mpg2 encoder. If the lens is great, and the encoding is good, added with improved chip technology, then you put enough light into these cameras they are absolutely going to floor people with their image.

February 17th, 2008, 03:08 PM	#96
Greg Hartzell Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Columbia, CT Posts: 168	54db s/n ratio seems to be the norm for hd cameras as far as I can tell. Any word on the new lens?

February 21st, 2008, 12:25 PM	#99
Adam Folickman Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: New Hampshire, USA Posts: 125	Laurence, How are your Transcend and Kingston CF cards working out ?

February 25th, 2008, 12:31 AM	#101
Greg Hartzell Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Columbia, CT Posts: 168	This kind of makes me sad. All of this discussion about the z7u vs the ex1 and the thread dries up when sony starts shipment. No side by side tests? Anybody want to shoot some resolution charts or color charts? Any reports on low light capability?

February 25th, 2008, 02:31 AM	#102
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	The Z1 has an f/2.8 max aperture at full tele and the Z7 is a stop faster at f/2. I was quite amused to see him refer to the Z1's lens as 'being .8 better'. It makes me want to take all the test results with a bucket of salt. Make of it what you will. tom.

February 25th, 2008, 08:36 AM	#103
Bruce Ostrout Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Jacksonville Fl Posts: 107	.8 better meaning at the telephoto end with the same or similar focal length the Z7 lens does not stop down therefore there is more light available to the sensor. What is wrong with that...? Where are your examples?

February 25th, 2008, 10:41 AM	#105
Greg Hartzell Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Columbia, CT Posts: 168	I don't get it? Not quite the "test" results I was looking for. Lets hope for a good review.