New HVR-Z7 released

[Simon Wyndham]

I'm not quite sure the Infinity is selling as well as Panasonic P2 cameras or Sony XDCAM.

Give it a chance. It isn't even on general sale yet! They are still filling backorders until the beginning of next year.

XDCAM is also uses an "established" codec.

The codec yes, but some who are in the market for an HDV camera might be using software like Premiere which doesn't natively support the XDCAM MXF format.

The HDV syle M2T file format can be used in pretty much every single NLE out there. And, like I said, this camera is for existing HDV owners who do not want to leave the security of tape altogether. Sony are making a very smooth path to tapeless for such people. That is why they are still releasing HDV cameras. They realise that a lot of people like to use tape, and there is still a market for it.

This is a cover all bases thing. If you don't want the HDV format or use CF, buy an EX1. Its simple. The entire reason behind what Sony is doing is to create a camera that suits every market level. This camera obviously doesn't suit you. So buy one of the other cameras. :)

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

I'm not quite sure the Infinity is selling as well as Panasonic P2 cameras or Sony XDCAM. That doesn't speak to the technology but clearly people aren't "jumping" to a camera because it uses CF.

Infinity has only just been released, so it's very early days yet. And SxS and P2 may be better suited to the higher end market, but (in the EX thread) we're talking about mid range product.

Sony's Juan Martinez has said the EX1 WILL be able to take cheaper 8GB cards (now going for about $200) once they certify the specific cards and offer the EX1 firmware upgrade. While such cards may not be in the typical electronics store there certainly will be cheaper cards than the Sony/Sandisk SxS cards.

The MAIN difference will be transfer speed and that is certainly critical for some of us. Even with the "bottleneck" of the hard drive SxS transfer speed will be very fast.

If the EX will take the cheaper cards it is obviously very good news. Use expensive cards when needed, and cheaper when possible. If it will take ExpressCards of a similar spec to the CF cards we're talking about at the same price, it makes the EX even more attractive.

But why wasn't this made crystal clear from the beginning by Sony?

[Paul Ramsbottom]

I am really excited by this model, and see it is a complete compliment to the HVR-A1U that I already own and the PMW-EX1 that I am waiting for.

I just hope they make the body-only available, as I'd like to pair it with a good 35mm adapter and some primes.

I like to shoot travelogue films, and see myself using this when I have the time and opportunity to carefully set-up shots. That unfortunately is only about 25% of the time, so the EX1 will be used when I need to shoot quickly, and for landscapes and other shots where a super-tight DoF isn't critical.

Finally I still see the HVR-A1U as an important tool in my workflow, despite not having a full-quality 24P mode. It makes a very discrete and lightweight camera that I can get into places that the bigger cams will not. It also sits very comfortably on a small hand-held steady-cam I like use, and can even be brought in to do pretty respectable 1080x1920 timelapse shots using it's still-shot mode.

Now I just have to get permission from my fiancee for another camera :(

[Ian Holb]

Would these be considered the 4th generation HDV camcorders?

1st gen - jvc
2nd gen - sony fx1/z1
3rd gen - canon a1/g1/xlh1, sony v1u/fx7
4th gen - sony ex/z7

??

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Joel Chappell

No HD-SDI out on the Z7 as far as I can tell. Not native progressive, uses the 1080/60i "wrapper".

When you record 24p to tape, pulldown is used.

When you 24p record to CF, pulldown seems not to be used.

My concern -- given how close the handheld price is to the EX1, why wouldn't I go with the far better EX1? Now, if the handheld were $3500, then it makes it much more reasonable.

And, $10K for ANY 1/3-inch Sensor camcorder? The DSR-250 was only about $7000 MSRP. This is a replacement for it, so it should be priced no higher!

Of course it's possible these prices are positioned for an exchange rate of 100-yen to the dollar.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

My concern -- given how close the handheld price is to the EX1, why wouldn't I go with the far better EX1?

That had occurred to me as well. I think the answer must be that for some work the absolute quality is less important than the workflow, so the CF/tape simultaneous ability, and the ability to make a tape backup/archive at the time of shooting is more important for some than 1/2" chips, 35Mbs etc.

Be nice to have cake and eat it though.......

[Justin Benn]

Originally Posted by David Heath

That had occurred to me as well. I think the answer must be that for some work the absolute quality is less important than the workflow, so the CF/tape simultaneous ability, and the ability to make a tape backup/archive at the time of shooting is more important for some than 1/2" chips, 35Mbs etc.

Be nice to have cake and eat it though.......

I agree - and presumably they are pitched at the JVC user's workflow and now provide an alternative mount for (relatively) inexpensive lens experimentation. I wouldn't mind having both the EX1 and the new 270 but since I can only choose one, may take the EX1. But the decision has become harder though. Why? Well I am as likely to shoot factual as non-factual content and seemingly all these new Sony cams bring a lot of welcome choice to the sector of the mini-indie production house. At least around these parts.

Hmm.

Justin.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Justin Benn

I agree - and presumably they are pitched at the JVC user's workflow ...........

The JVC 250 with Firestore I'd agree can be a useful combination for the same reasons, but this CF recorder now seems to have the edge - likely to have lower power consumption (so no more noisy cooling fans?), and removable solid state media - makes me wonder what JVC will do next, and when?

[Joel Chappell]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

When you record 24p to tape, pulldown is used.

When you 24p record to CF, pulldown seems not to be used.

My concern -- given how close the handheld price is to the EX1, why wouldn't I go with the far better EX1? Now, if the handheld were $3500, then it makes it much more reasonable.

And, $10K for ANY 1/3-inch Sensor camcorder? The DSR-250 was only about $7000 MSRP. This is a replacement for it, so it should be priced no higher!

Of course it's possible these prices are positioned for an exchange rate of 100-yen to the dollar.

If the same MAP discount formula is applied to this camera as they used on the EX1, 83% of List, it should street for about $5300 USD.

With Sony releasing all of this new stuff, I wonder how long before all of the others will be releasing new products? My "Spidey Sense" tells me 2008 will be a great year for video.

[Craig Seeman]

David,

I heard Juan Martinez say this about the cheaper cards at DVExpo East months ago (I had forgot his name though). Many others on this and other forums claimed they had spoken to Sony reps and said they WOULD NOT be supporting the cheaper cards. What I can say is I heard Juan Martinez say it in then and I heard him say it again now.

Why others are hearing and claiming other things, I don't know.

The absents of an overt marketing statement may have been because Sony had to confirm the firmware upgrade was the viable solution and that there needed to be some way within Sony to certify to the end user which cards would/won't work. My speculation here but I'm sure they had things to work about before explaining how such compatibility would be worked out, if at all possible.

He did make clear that it would require a firmware upgrade and that Sony would certify cards since some won't meet the specs. That was new information. Given JM's position at Sony I can safely assume both his verbal and Power Point presentation were approved by Sony.

Originally Posted by David Heath

Infinity has only just been released, so it's very early days yet. And SxS and P2 may be better suited to the higher end market, but (in the EX thread) we're talking about mid range product.

If the EX will take the cheaper cards it is obviously very good news. Use expensive cards when needed, and cheaper when possible. If it will take ExpressCards of a similar spec to the CF cards we're talking about at the same price, it makes the EX even more attractive.

But why wasn't this made crystal clear from the beginning by Sony?

[Craig Seeman]

There are people who won't get the EX1 because it neither records to tape nor records Standard Def. Others insist on interchangeable lenses.

Some would have liked all that in the EX1. For them though there's the F355 (disc, not tape though). I wouldn't be surprised if they'll be some sort of F355 replacement that'll use SxS too or an EX2 which will include some of the above features.

In the near future people can choose between the Z7 or EX1. For me, the EX1 is a CLEAR choice. The only thing I like more about the Z7 is the interchangeable lens but that's really not that important to me compared to the other features.

Originally Posted by David Heath

That had occurred to me as well. I think the answer must be that for some work the absolute quality is less important than the workflow, so the CF/tape simultaneous ability, and the ability to make a tape backup/archive at the time of shooting is more important for some than 1/2" chips, 35Mbs etc.

Be nice to have cake and eat it though.......

[Tim Polster]

The way I see it is with the EX introduction and its better low light capabilities, the CMOS chips will probably show up in a 330/350 style camera.

It makes more sense from a financial point of view as Sony makes these chips for the 35mm still cameras as well.

I would be happy with a fixed lens (20x5.5) with a shoulder mount.

So one could have a big gun and an EX or two for events.

Plus, I would guess Panasonic has to be working on some new cameras with higher resolution chips as well.

So 2008 has some real potential to be the year to move to HD with some more choices.

[Alex Leith]

Originally Posted by Tim Polster

The way I see it is with the EX introduction and its better low light capabilities, the CMOS chips will probably show up in a 330/350 style camera.

It makes more sense from a financial point of view as Sony makes these chips for the 35mm still cameras as well.

Reading the quote from the Sony engineer at the French XDCAM show, we may not see CMOS in the higher end Sony cameras, as he implied CCD for broadcast; CMOS for lower-end.

Does anyone know why so few CMOS implementations use global shutter?

[Simon Wyndham]

Apparently there are more issues with CMOS as you go up in scale. Don't know what the technicals of this are though.

To be honest I don't really care if there's a miniature bloke sat inside the camera drawing pictures of what he sees as long as the results look good.

[David Parks]

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

To be honest I don't really care if there's a miniature bloke sat inside the camera drawing pictures of what he sees as long as the results look good.

I have that camera. Feeding the guy is expensive...the little guy can really eat. i agree with Simon.

CCD's have problems with dead pixels and vertical smear, CMOS have problems with rolling shutter, blah, blah, blah. Tape has drop outs, film has scratches or a hair in the gate, CF can have a corrupted file. Good lord.

There will always be a tech issue that one needs to work around,

I'm sure the Exmor and Clearvid CMOS looks fine 99.999999% of the time.

Cheers.