2 new Sony HDV cams with interchangeable lens

[Joel Chappell]

Originally Posted by David Parks

I'm stilll curious why Sony made this statement.

"The HVR-Z7E and HVR-S270E can switch between 1080p, 1080i in the HDV format. The 3 ClearVid CMOS Sensor system and EIP technology create true 1080p images, which can then be recorded as progressive signals by the HVR-Z7E and HVR-S270E camcorders in the HDV format. The progressive HDV streams can be output from an i.LINK connector and used for progressive editing with compatible NLE software."

Reading this statement they clearly state 1080p recorded as progressive signals. 60p??? or is it 24p/30p over 60i?? And the progressive streams can be output and used for progressive editing?

Heath, you're probably right. The way they're wording it with "true 1080p" got me excited.

Thanks.

The specs on the Sony Japan website for the Z7 say this:

"The corresponding video format is
HDV1080：60i/24p/30p
DVCAM/DV：480/60i "

But what I haven't been able to find, is how they are achieving the 24p. I am going to speculate that they are using pulldown from the 60i. My guess is based on the specs for the M35:

"Video signal
1080/60i NTSC EIA 1080/60 i system, NTSC color, EIA standard method
1080/50iPAL、CCIR 1080/50 i system, PAL color, CCIR standard method "


But that is a seriously uneducated guess.

[David Parks]

Thanks Joel. But what does this mean? (From Studio Daily)

"Like the EX, which is an XDCAM recorder that doesn’t record to XDCAM discs, the new S270U is an HDV recorder that doesn’t have to record to HDV tapes. Beyond capturing and recording images as 60i using 2:3 pulldown, the S270U’s native progressive recording mode lets it output 24p and 30p (25p on the European version) via iLink."

Does the CF recorder hook up to the iLink (IEEE1394) port?? What do they mean by beyond capturing and recording 60i using 2:3 pulldown?
Is this true 1080p/24 to iLink or is it performing pulldown extraction from 60i?

Sorry guys, just trying to decipher the "marketeze".

[Ethan Cooper]

Originally Posted by Joel Chappell

Notice that note 2. Indicates that it actually captures at 60i and then performs pulldown.

Joel,
Just so we're all clear here:
That's talking about 24p mode. Heath was referring to 24pn mode. The "n" stands for native. If you shoot the HVX200 in 24pn mode, you're only getting 24 progressive frames of data written to the card per second. That's about as true of a 24p as 24p(n) gets.

As far as I understand it, the HDV specifications dictate that there HAS TO BE 60 interlaced frames of data written to tape every second. This is why JVC broke with the HDV consortium guidelines and invented their own flavor of HDV they call "ProHD". Their 720p24 format is proprietary (and pretty good).

By no means am I an expert, I just read a lot. The previous paragraphs are what I've gathered from my readings in the past. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here. I very well could be.

[Mikko Lopponen]

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper

As far as I understand it, the HDV specifications dictate that there HAS TO BE 60 interlaced frames of data written to tape every second.

That's a pretty silly guideline. Mpeg decoders are very robust and could easily handle multiple different resolutions and frame sizes. A 25p native stream would encode more efficiently without the encoder trying to assume there is interlacing.

[Ethan Cooper]

Like I said, i could be wrong

[David Parks]

Originally Posted by David Parks

the new S270U is an HDV recorder that doesn’t have to record to HDV tapes. Beyond capturing and recording images as 60i using 2:3 pulldown, the S270U’s native progressive recording mode lets it output 24p and 30p (25p on the European version) via iLink."

Does the CF recorder hook up to the iLink (IEEE1394) port?? What do they mean by beyond capturing and recording 60i using 2:3 pulldown?
Is this true 1080p/24 to iLink or is it performing pulldown extraction from 60i?

Sorry guys, just trying to decipher the "marketeze".

Okay. I talked with my local dealer and this is what he said. They made the camera recording switchable to record 1080i or 1080p. Going to tape is a 60i stream like Robert said. The CF module has a label mark that says "Progressive" . The module can record 1080p/24 or 1080p/30 in m2t. But it's not the same GOP as traditional HDV2. (He didn't know what it was).

The module can record m2t,dv, etc. in 60i (HDV2 Which he's sure includes 24p like the V1) and the 2 "New" progressive modes 1080p/24 and 1080p/30.

So we don't know what edit systems will support the new GOP. He said FCP should have it in the next release but he thought Avid Liquid should work right now and he didn't know about the others.

So it sounds like Sony is using the m2t file format with a different GOP for 24/30p.

Sort of like JVC did with getting 720/60p to an HDV tape. They went from a 6 frame GOP on 720p/24/30 to a 12 frame GOP to get 60 true progressive frames on the 200 series cameras.

Note: (Not everything is forced to be in a 60i stream by the HDV spec)

Cheers.

[Robert Ducon]

Originally Posted by David Parks

Going to tape is a 60i stream like Robert said. The CF module has a label mark that says "Progressive" . The module can record 1080p/24 or 1080p/30 in m2t. But it's not the same GOP as traditional HDV2. (He didn't know what it was).

The module can record m2t,dv, etc. in 60i (HDV2 Which he's sure includes 24p like the V1) and the 2 "New" progressive modes 1080p/24 and 1080p/30.

So we don't know what edit systems will support the new GOP. He said FCP should have it in the next release but he thought Avid Liquid should work right now and he didn't know about the others.

So it sounds like Sony is using the m2t file format with a different GOP for 24/30p. Note: (Not everything is forced to be in a 60i stream by the HDV spec)

Good.. a real 24 solid frames per second on the card.

For what it's worth, FCP can export HDV 1080p24: twenty four frames per second, in a GOP HDV format. So the HDV spec has some leg-room it appears.

The last thing I want when moving to a solid state format, is having to re-render all my data to get 60i to 24P - that'd be stupid - the technology is better than that.

[Ethan Cooper]

Note: (Not everything is forced to be in a 60i stream by the HDV spec)

Really? Good to know. We are talking about going to tape right? Not arguing, just trying to make sure I completely understand. It was my understanding that if it went to tape it had to be 60i, but when you take tape out of the equation, all bets are off.
To be clear, when I'm talking about forcing into a 60i stream I'm ONLY talking about going to tape.
Thanks in advance for explaining this to me.

[Robert Ducon]

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper

Really? Good to know. We are talking about going to tape right? Not arguing, just trying to make sure I completely understand. It was my understanding that if it went to tape it had to be 60i, but when you take tape out of the equation, all bets are off.
To be clear, when I'm talking about forcing into a 60i stream I'm ONLY talking about going to tape.
Thanks in advance for explaining this to me.

No, we're talking about to the card.

We know how the tape works: to tape is 60i - with the 24P 'contained' within the stream.

To card it could be true, 23.976 frames a second (also known as 24P). Not 60i.

[David Parks]

Ethan,

You're probably right in that you can't fit a full 1440x1080 24p 25mbit HDV2 in anything but a 60i stream to tape. But JVC did fit a 720/60p 19mbit HDV1 stream to tape.

But this is excellent news for indie film makers that want interchangable lenses and don't have to use a program (like Cineform) to deinterlace and extract 24p from a 60i stream. I bet most edit programs will support the new GOP soon.

[Heath McKnight]

Okay, I got confirmation from expert Graeme Nattress: 60i streams are needed to put 23.98 fps signals to tape. HDCAM can handle native 24p, but not minidv.

Heath

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by David Parks

Okay. I talked with my local dealer and this is what he said. They made the camera recording switchable to record 1080i or 1080p. Going to tape is a 60i stream like Robert said. The CF module has a label mark that says "Progressive" . The module can record 1080p/24 or 1080p/30 in m2t.

That's how I read it too. Since Apple just released V1 24p/25p/30p support today -- the tape version of 24p is now very useful. After a year of waiting!!! Of course, still no Media Composer and Xpes Pro HD support.

The CF card version will work just like the EX1. True 24p/25p/30p written to the card. Thus, it could be like 24pn.

However, I haven't seen anything that shows longer recording times for 24p! Which could mean 24p is carried within 30fps. (4 frames converted to 5 frames using a 2-3 cadence.) The 6 unwanted frames every second can be flagged and dropped during capture. Or, captured and ignored during editing.

PS: How is Canon's 25F recorded to tape? It doesn't use 2-3 pulldown.

[Ethan Cooper]

Originally Posted by Heath McKnight

Okay, I got confirmation from expert Graeme Nattress: 60i streams are needed to put 23.98 fps signals to tape. HDCAM can handle native 24p, but not minidv.

Heath

Wow. How cool would it be to have that guy on speed dial. You're now officially cool Heath.

[Joel Chappell]

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper

Joel,
Just so we're all clear here:
That's talking about 24p mode. Heath was referring to 24pn mode. The "n" stands for native. If you shoot the HVX200 in 24pn mode, you're only getting 24 progressive frames of data written to the card per second. That's about as true of a 24p as 24p(n) gets.

As far as I understand it, the HDV specifications dictate that there HAS TO BE 60 interlaced frames of data written to tape every second. This is why JVC broke with the HDV consortium guidelines and invented their own flavor of HDV they call "ProHD". Their 720p24 format is proprietary (and pretty good).

By no means am I an expert, I just read a lot. The previous paragraphs are what I've gathered from my readings in the past. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here. I very well could be.

I have never heard of 24Pn, only 24Pa. The best description of the way it works is from Dvfilm.com. The following excerpt explains how the HVX200 accomplishes both 1080 24p and 720 24p:

"1080/24PA (Advanced, or 2:3:3:2 Pulldown)

The Panasonic HVX200 can record 1920 x 1080 at 24P (actually 23.976), with 2:3:3:2 (Advanced) pulldown, and this is the recommended recording mode for transfer to film.

The movie is stored on the P2 card as a 1920 x 1080i MXF file, at 29.97 frames/sec for compatibility with standard HD editing systems such as FCP-HD and Avid Express Pro HD.

To play back the .mxf files in DVFilm Maker, drag the file into Maker and it will appear in the playback window.

To remove the pulldown for editing at 24P and convert the .mxf file into a 24P Quicktime or AVI,

1. Drag the .mxf file from the P2 card virtual drive into DVFilm Maker.

2. Special playback controls will appear. Note the player does not play back audio.

3. To convert to 24P, select 24P Edit options, remove 2:3:3:2 pulldown
and 23.976 fps exact. In Advanced Options, choose User Selects Output Folder
and browse for a folder on your disk drive. Also select "Always Make Quicktime" if you
want Quicktime format (otherwise an AVI will be created). Other options may be required,
see "Choosing a Codec" below.

4. Close the 24P Edit options box if required and hit Start. When finished, use File->SaveAs.


5. Clips can also be batch converted by dragging them into the batch window.

720/24P or 720/25P recording mode


Maker will also process the 1280 x 720 frame size. In this case, no pulldown removal is required, Maker is just used to convert to Quicktime or AVI format, and if required, recompress to a different codec.

To convert the .mxf file into a Quicktime or AVI,

1. Drag the .mxf file from the P2 card virtual drive into DVFilm Maker.

2. Special playback controls will appear. Note the player does not play back audio.

3. Select "Deinterlace" and then UNselect it, to turn off all processing of the video.

4. Select Advanced Options.

5. To convert to Avid or Apple Quicktime format choose "Always Make Quicktime."
Other options may be required, see "Choosing a Codec" below.

6. Close the Advanced options box if required and hit Start. When finished, use File->SaveAs.


7. Clips can also be batch converted by dragging them into the batch window."

Here it is stated again in the user manual:
"DVCPRO HD Recording onto a P2 Card
The AG-HVX200 is the compact camera-recorder to offer 1080/24p (over 60i)
shooting. You can also select 1080/60i, 1080/30p, 720/60p, 720/30p, or 720/24p
in HD. The multi-codec lets you choose either DVCPRO 50, DVCPRO, or DV format
for SD (480i) recording"



I'm not making a case for or against the HVX200. It was posted earlier that the HVX200 records 1080 24p with no pulldown to the P2 card. I haven't found any documentation that supports anything other than the HVX200 accomplish pulldown in camera to get it done. This from Panasonic documentation and other websites such as I referenced. There certainly could be modes that I am not aware of, but I haven't found this one.

I'm not saying that's bad, but other than the fact that the HVX200 is putting the video on a P2 card, the process it uses to achieve 1080 24p is not unique among cameras under the 15k price tag that the writer made reference to. In fact, it seems very similar to the JVC HD series process.

Being we are all trying to learn the facts, the little details can be important. And as I say that, if one of the HVX200 wizards has a better explanation, or can explain where I am misguided I would welcome that info. I really admire this camera and want to understand all of this stuff.

If the HVX200 records 1080 24p at full resolution, to tape or P2, I will buy one. But so far, I haven't found that to be the case.

[Heath McKnight]

Only in 720p (and maybe 480p), you can use 24pn (native), no pulldown. You can fit around 40 minutes of 720p 24pn on two 4 gb cards. Maybe two 8 gb, I forget. Whichever was the max when the HVX shipped.

For my film Hellevator, we used the HPX500 with four 16 gb P2 cards. We got around 170 minutes in 720p 24pn.

I know Graeme well; he has helped me out a lot. Most recently, he aided me in an article for Videomaker about the State of Imaging (CCDs, CMOS, etc.). He and I speak almost daily.

Here's a picture of Rob Lohman, Graeme and I (I'm first, Rob's second, Graeme's third, left to right) at NAB 07. I've lost about 20+ lbs. since then, btw. :-)

heath

ps-Hope I'm cool!