2 new Sony HDV cams with interchangeable lens

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Thanks Chris! Not very practical it seems, but good to know about it...

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

This might sound silly, but has anyone heard of a possibility to copy any type of files to a miniDV tape? I'm buying the EX1, but keeping my V1E - now, it'd be nice to be able to use the miniDV tapes as archives for BOTH! But of course the only obvious way of printing to such tape is what the NLE/V1E allows, and this is just the 1080/50i format... Any way of storing other format as raw files?

Well, you already have Chris's response.

Might I suggest archiving to DVD-DL.

Those 8GB SxS cards fit nicely on a DVD-DL, the DVD-DL's are portable to any system with a DVD reader, and anyone can view the media, on Windows or Mac, with the freely downloadable XDCAM software from Sony.

Later when they are affordable blue ray or HD-DVD recorders will work rather well for larger capacity devices.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Well said. It's very likely the EXMOR 1/2-inch are "equal" to the last gen 2/3-in and this new gen 1/3-in EXMOR chips are "equal" to the last gen 1/2-in.

If you so you can't compare by chip size.

No they can't be compared by chip size.

1/2" sensors have a different depth of field than 2/3" or 1/3" sensors, so they are never directly comparable.

The EXMOR sensors in the EX1 are very sensitive. They are rated at ASA 800 by DPs I trust. My tests lent credence to their rating, although I did not rate it myself. I will also say that they outperform the other XDCAM sensors in light sensitivity. The camera was impressive and a "game changer."

In fact, I'd say that the EX1 had much better sensitivity than the F900R, although it had somewhat poorer latitude, and of course deeper depth of field. (The F900 is an HDCAM with a 2/3" sensor if you don't know.) I didn't meter so I can't be definitive, just an impression.

The Z7 and S270 were significantly less sensitive than the EX1. I found their performance to be an evolutionary improvement over the earlier 1/3" cameras, not a giant leap.

Also, it's possible the EXMOR noise canceling technology will allow high gains be used -- perhaps +15dB.

Nope.

First off the gain options on the EX1 are: -3, 0, 3, 6, 9, 12 and 18 dB. I think they are the same on the S270.

I tested the EX1 rather more than the HDV cameras, but I can tell you this: +9db is the most gain any of us not shooting news will want to use. +9 had clearly visible noise but it would work for some shots and would definitely be acceptable at many events.

I heard comments that +9 was clean. I know at least some people will be using it routinely, although I wouldn't.

The higher gain settings were just too noisy- unless your scene specifically calls for that type of image degradation you just don't want to use it.

That's just my opinion- your standards and working conditions may vary. In other words, my opinion may be useless to your way of working. For reference, on most cameras I never use more than +3dB gain.

Its better to say that the EX1 sensors will allow you to get a better image at lower gain settings.

I think with this camera I can shoot at -3dB gain in places where I would have to shoot at +9 or +12 with other cameras.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Alexander Ibrahim

I think with this camera I can shoot at -3dB gain in places where I would have to shoot at +9 or +12 with other cameras.

Which means that if I can live with a V1 between +9 and +15dB -- a 1.5-stop (or 2-stops) increase of real sensitivity will keep gain under +9dB. This is a very significant improvement.

In fact, since HDCAM/Varicam docs routinely show noise in night shots I have no problem with a bit of noise. One now has the choice to shoot clean or not. So with the new camcorders I could shoot it situations that demand +18dB with the V1.

Therefore, part of the new higher price is the XMOR CMOS chips. Another part is the better manual controls. Plus the higher rez. LCD. So we are looking at a camera that is better much than the Z1 and HVX200 and any Canon.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Which means that if I can live with a V1 between +9 and +15dB -- a 1.5-stop (or 2-stops) increase of real sensitivity will keep gain under +9dB. This is a very significant improvement.

I posted quite a bit on this subject in another thread, and do feel it important to point out that on cameras the 0dB setting can be a somewhat arbitrary affair. AFAIK it doesn't correspond to any standard S/N figure, for example.

Hence to compare like for like, camera A may need 6dB of gain switched in to be comparable with camera B at 0dB. Giving a video camera an ASA rating may enable comparisons with film, but to form a basis for comparison with other video cameras, noise figures are needed. With some cameras I'd accept working with 12dB of gain, with others I wouldn't consider any gain at all acceptable.

In practice, the first reports of the EX tend to suggest it has a very low noise figure at 0dB, and hence the use of gain is less a problem than other 1/3" cameras. In which case, the 800ASA at 0dB measurement may actually understate it's fundamental sensitivity.

[Barry Richard]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Which means that if I can live with a V1 between +9 and +15dB -- a 1.5-stop (or 2-stops) increase of real sensitivity will keep gain under +9dB. This is a very significant improvement.

In fact, since HDCAM/Varicam docs routinely show noise in night shots I have no problem with a bit of noise. One now has the choice to shoot clean or not. So with the new camcorders I could shoot it situations that demand +18dB with the V1.

Therefore, part of the new higher price is the XMOR CMOS chips. Another part is the better manual controls. Plus the higher rez. LCD. So we are looking at a camera that is better much than the Z1 and HVX200 and any Canon.

I have posted previously that I thought the V7 looked very good -- both at 0 and +9. I clearly had a more favorable impression of how it performed in low light than Alexander (who has a more critical eye than me).

But its hard to be too certain of any of this until the Z7 can be compared A/B on the same monitor against other cameras.

Nevertheless, I'm comfortable repeating that it looked significantly better in low light than the HDV cameras that I'm familiar with: Z1, XHA1 ...

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by David Heath

I posted quite a bit on this subject in another thread, ...
In which case, the 800ASA at 0dB measurement may actually understate it's fundamental sensitivity.

I did not test the noise levels myself. Based on observation the camera has very very little noise. ("very very little" is an SI unit it turns out.)

The manual states that it is 54dB "Typical."

Now in typical manufacturer speak, I'd estimate that they "really meant" 54dB at -3dB gain. In other words peak SNR.

I think this camera may measure 54dB at +6dB... which is the median of the cameras gain settings.

To address your concern more completely- you should establish a separate ASA rating for each gain setting on the camera.

Then you treat switching the gain as though you are switching film speeds within a given stock. (Like a 5218 to a 5212)

Your gamma curves and other picture controls are like changing stocks (say Portra to Ultra, or Kodak to Fuji)

It isn't relevant to these cameras, but shooting RAW would be like shooting all possible stocks at all the available speeds. You decide later which particular stock you want.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by Barry Richard

I have posted previously that I thought the V7 looked very good -- both at 0 and +9. I clearly had a more favorable impression of how it performed in low light than Alexander (who has a more critical eye than me).

Stop it... you're making me blush.

Wait... that was the good kind of critical right?

Why is it so quiet?

But its hard to be too certain of any of this until the Z7 can be compared A/B on the same monitor against other cameras.

Nevertheless, I'm comfortable repeating that it looked significantly better in low light than the HDV cameras that I'm familiar with: Z1, XHA1 ...

I may have overstated my case... the Z7 and S270 are both improvements over every other HDV camera I've handled. That includes overall sensitivity.

I stated my opinion of EX gain... which I meant to use as a basis for comparison.

The short version is that I agree with Barry, 0dB and +9dB are both usable on the S270 and Z7. They were noisier to my eye than the EX1 by a clear margin, but both of them were improvements compared to earlier 1/3" HDV cameras.

My point is just that they are the "normal" sorts of improvements that you'd expect with new cameras.

I am contrasting that with the EX1 which is an impressive leap over anything in this price range, and a major improvement over the sensors in the F350/355 XDCAM HD.

As far as A/B goes I thought you were there Barry when I brought in the EX1 from the other 'room' and hooked it up to the LUMA with the S270 and did some A/B. The room was uncontrolled and lit for a projector (I think), but the LUMA series monitors include waveform monitors so you have some basis for comparison.

Finally for what its worth... the Z7 and S270 were hooked to the same model monitor with the same calibration setup so any judgements you made about those cameras are worth sharing.

Given that both models were pre production prototypes the very minor differences I noted in picture are probably going to be gone in the shipping units.

The Z7 and S270 are going to be really nice together in the field. If only the Z7 had TC IN or some such.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Alexander Ibrahim

To address your concern more completely- you should establish a separate ASA rating for each gain setting on the camera.

Then you treat switching the gain as though you are switching film speeds within a given stock. (Like a 5218 to a 5212)

Yes, exactly, and comparisons between cameras then made for settings which seem to have similar amounts of noise - which will not necessarily be at comparable settings of their gain switches.

[Brian Standing]

Originally Posted by Alexander Ibrahim

Might I suggest archiving to DVD-DL.

Those 8GB SxS cards fit nicely on a DVD-DL, the DVD-DL's are portable to any system with a DVD reader, and anyone can view the media, on Windows or Mac, with the freely downloadable XDCAM software from Sony.

You're right, that's a perfectly serviceable storage option, although I am a little concerned about the stability of DVD-DL media. For me, the real killer is the $3600 cost for 4 16gb SxS cards in order to shoot continuously for 4 hours. That and the time it will take to backup flash footage onto DVD-DL.

[Joseph H. Moore]

- The backup time will suck, hard to get around that. But drives will keep getting faster.
- With even a very cheap, small laptop you can keep two cards going for as long as you want, as long as you have the time to swap, or have a willing assistant.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Alexander Ibrahim

Those 8GB SxS cards fit nicely on a DVD-DL, the DVD-DL's are portable to any system with a DVD reader, and anyone can view the media, on Windows or Mac, with the freely downloadable XDCAM software from Sony.

There's a big advantage to matching card size and optical disc size.

1) it allows unattended backup. Nothing's worse than having to babysit a backup.

2) tracking is very EZ. You shoot ONE 8GB card at a date and time and it's contents are stored on ONE 8GB disc labled with a date and time.

Now, when editing you insert ONE disk just like you would load ONE tape.

[Ed Sharpe]

with this sensor and this 18-200 mm lens I wish this could teach it to do video also!

It is interesting to see the new panny and Sony models that are on the way.
I am really needing an affordable shoulder mount. I would like it to be able to switch select to SD also.
---ed