Rolling Shutter?? at DVinfo.net

Todd Clark · February 20th, 2009, 12:59 PM

What are you guys doing about this when you shoot weddings? It seems like there is no way to use any camera with Cmos chips for weddings. There are always going to be camera flashes from the Photographer. A lot of my editing uses slow motion and cannot afford the time to try and get around rolling shutter.

I am in the process of picking new cameras for weddings and finding it impossible because either they are real good in low light like the fx1000 but has cmos chips and rolling shutter or you can get something like XH-A1 with CCD's but the low light perfomances sucks.

I really don't want to use AVCHD and I want to stay in the $3000-$3500 range.

If they made a Fx1000 with CCD's that would be the way to go. Is there something out there that I am missing?

Thanks!

Roger Shore · February 20th, 2009, 01:28 PM

It's a shame you don't want to use AVCHD, the Panasonic AG HMC150 Learn about Panasonic's AG-HMC150 might just suit you otherwise. 3 X CCD sensor, reportedly quite good in low light, professional features. And of course, no rolling shutter issues.
Why not AVCHD? I find that using something like the Canopus AVCHD2HQ converter can convert to a high quality editable format in faster than real time. So no different from downloading from tape, time wise.
Maybe you have another reason for avoiding AVCHD?

Todd Clark · February 20th, 2009, 02:05 PM

Thanks Roger! The AVCHD format just seems like it is to much trouble for editing then it's worth. It is so taxing on CPU's. Maybe I should check into the Canopus AVCHD2HQ converter. Is this a free utility? Does coversion loose quality at all and what format are you converting to?

Thanks again for your help!

P.S. It seems the lux ratings for the ccd cameras are almost the same.

Jo Ouwejan · February 20th, 2009, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd Clark

It seems like there is no way to use any camera with Cmos chips for weddings. There are always going to be camera flashes from the Photographer. A lot of my editing uses slow motion and cannot afford the time to try and get around rolling shutter.

Is this the way I read it? Are you adding slomo's on a regular basis in your wedding vids? Why is that so nice to have or unavoidable? Seems to me that you would get bored meeting slomo's often. All sharp knives get blunt by frequent use.

Jeff Harper · February 20th, 2009, 06:55 PM

Todd, I too don't want AVCHD, but the Panasonic is reportedly a very nice tool. I have two FX1000's, and they are nice, but I have heard virtually nothing but praise for the Pannys. You should check the Panasonic forum. Very few complaints on that camera. For what you are looking for at present it is the best option, IMO.

Norman Gaddis · February 20th, 2009, 07:00 PM

I have the FX1000 and the HMC150. Forget trying to edit AVCHD natively. Converting to an editable format is no big deal. The HMC150 is the best camera available in your price range, hands down.

Jeff Harper · February 20th, 2009, 07:22 PM

Norman, someone asked somewhere how those two cut togther. I can't imagine they do. What's your experience?

Todd Clark · February 20th, 2009, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Todd, I too don't want AVCHD, but the Panasonic is reportedly a very nice tool. I have two FX1000's, and they are nice, but I have heard virtually nothing but praise for the Pannys. You should check the Panasonic forum. Very few complaints on that camera. For what you are looking for at present it is the best option, IMO.

Thanks everybody for your suggestions! I really appreciate the input.

Jeff...seeing that you have two fx1000's what do you use them for? Are you shooting weddings? If so...I would think that the rolling shutter is killing you not to mention the 3.4 f-stop at full zoom.

In regards to converting to an editable format...which format are you converting to and do you loose any quality whatsoever?

Ken Ross · February 20th, 2009, 09:13 PM

Todd, there are many wedding videographers using CMOS cams quite successfully. I have not heard of a single complaint from any customers of the guys who do this for a living. Frankly I've watched quite a bit of footage from these cams during weddings and I just don't think it's as big a deal as some make it out to be.

But you must be the ultimate judge. What I can say as a user of the Z5, the low light is simply unparralled.

Norman Gaddis · February 20th, 2009, 09:25 PM

"In regards to converting to an editable format...which format are you converting to and do you loose any quality whatsoever?"

Since I edit with Edius, I convert to Canopus HQ avi. No quality loss that I can see.

Norman Gaddis · February 20th, 2009, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Norman, someone asked somewhere how those two cut togther. I can't imagine they do. What's your experience?

To be honest, I don't know yet because I've only shot one event and I haven't begun editing it yet. However, I think I can tweak the FX's footage a little and match them up okay. Especially since the only footage from the FX is the wide shot from the rear (the HMC is my manned cam up front). Even when shooting with the same model cameras, at most ceremonies the footage can look vastly different since the lighting is totally different between the two angles.

Tim Akin · February 20th, 2009, 09:40 PM

Norman, I sure would love to hear how well the 1000 and 150 cut once you get into the edit.

Mark Von Lanken · February 21st, 2009, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman Gaddis

To be honest, I don't know yet because I've only shot one event and I haven't begun editing it yet. However, I think I can tweak the FX's footage a little and match them up okay...

Hi Norman,

I made a post on the AVCCAM forum about matching the two cameras. I don't have an FX1000, so I am interested to see if the tweaks work.

Jeff Harper · February 21st, 2009, 06:42 AM

Todd, to answer your questions about the CMOS and lens ramping, they are murder. I hate both of these things about the cam. Flashes cover half of the image and it looks bad. The 3.4 at full zoom is awful. I can no longer get the stunning closeups I got with the my old 12X cams.

I'm learning to live with these things, but as I've said before there are nice things about the camera, you just have to decide if the pros outweigh the cons.

Editing the files is not as bad as I expected and they perform OK on the timeline, but as I get into editing HD footage on a regular basis I plan on using the VASST tool to create proxies to make it more manageable. I forget the name of it, but its inexpensive and is supposedly works well. Neo Scene is another option but it costs twice as much and the required disc space for the resulting files is too much for me when I am dealing with 10-15 weddings at a time.

There are those who will tell you the rolling shutter effects on camera flashes are not bad. I completely disagree. I've shot 4 weddings with the cameras and particularly when the room is very dark the effect is dreadful. If the ambient light is bright, it is not so bad.

BTW, I have seen, as I mentioned before that Tom H referred to severe lens ramping on the Panasonic 150, but that was the first I heard about it. I would look closely at the specs on the Panasonic before buying, but I doubt it is a severe as it is on the FX1000/Z5.

Khoi Pham · February 21st, 2009, 09:34 AM

"I can no longer get the stunning closeups I got with the my old 12X cams."

Don't zoom in all the way to 20X, zoom in to 12X and you still get stunning closeups like your old cam.(-:

February 20th, 2009, 12:59 PM	#1
Todd Clark Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Parma, Oh Posts: 172	Rolling Shutter?? What are you guys doing about this when you shoot weddings? It seems like there is no way to use any camera with Cmos chips for weddings. There are always going to be camera flashes from the Photographer. A lot of my editing uses slow motion and cannot afford the time to try and get around rolling shutter. I am in the process of picking new cameras for weddings and finding it impossible because either they are real good in low light like the fx1000 but has cmos chips and rolling shutter or you can get something like XH-A1 with CCD's but the low light perfomances sucks. I really don't want to use AVCHD and I want to stay in the $3000-$3500 range. If they made a Fx1000 with CCD's that would be the way to go. Is there something out there that I am missing? Thanks!

February 20th, 2009, 09:40 PM	#12
Tim Akin Major Player Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Newbern, TN Posts: 414	Norman, I sure would love to hear how well the 1000 and 150 cut once you get into the edit. __________________ Tim

February 21st, 2009, 09:34 AM	#15
Khoi Pham Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Posts: 747	"I can no longer get the stunning closeups I got with the my old 12X cams." Don't zoom in all the way to 20X, zoom in to 12X and you still get stunning closeups like your old cam.(-: __________________ Khoi Pham www.proeditproductions.com

February 20th, 2009, 01:28 PM	#2
Roger Shore Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: UK Posts: 113	It's a shame you don't want to use AVCHD, the Panasonic AG HMC150 Learn about Panasonic's AG-HMC150 might just suit you otherwise. 3 X CCD sensor, reportedly quite good in low light, professional features. And of course, no rolling shutter issues. Why not AVCHD? I find that using something like the Canopus AVCHD2HQ converter can convert to a high quality editable format in faster than real time. So no different from downloading from tape, time wise. Maybe you have another reason for avoiding AVCHD?

February 20th, 2009, 02:05 PM	#3
Todd Clark Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Parma, Oh Posts: 172	Thanks Roger! The AVCHD format just seems like it is to much trouble for editing then it's worth. It is so taxing on CPU's. Maybe I should check into the Canopus AVCHD2HQ converter. Is this a free utility? Does coversion loose quality at all and what format are you converting to? Thanks again for your help! P.S. It seems the lux ratings for the ccd cameras are almost the same.

February 20th, 2009, 06:55 PM	#5
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Todd, I too don't want AVCHD, but the Panasonic is reportedly a very nice tool. I have two FX1000's, and they are nice, but I have heard virtually nothing but praise for the Pannys. You should check the Panasonic forum. Very few complaints on that camera. For what you are looking for at present it is the best option, IMO.

February 20th, 2009, 07:00 PM	#6
Norman Gaddis New Boot Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Buford, Georgia Posts: 23	I have the FX1000 and the HMC150. Forget trying to edit AVCHD natively. Converting to an editable format is no big deal. The HMC150 is the best camera available in your price range, hands down.

February 20th, 2009, 07:22 PM	#7
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Norman, someone asked somewhere how those two cut togther. I can't imagine they do. What's your experience?

February 20th, 2009, 09:13 PM	#9
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Todd, there are many wedding videographers using CMOS cams quite successfully. I have not heard of a single complaint from any customers of the guys who do this for a living. Frankly I've watched quite a bit of footage from these cams during weddings and I just don't think it's as big a deal as some make it out to be. But you must be the ultimate judge. What I can say as a user of the Z5, the low light is simply unparralled.

February 20th, 2009, 09:25 PM	#10
Norman Gaddis New Boot Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Buford, Georgia Posts: 23	"In regards to converting to an editable format...which format are you converting to and do you loose any quality whatsoever?" Since I edit with Edius, I convert to Canopus HQ avi. No quality loss that I can see.

February 21st, 2009, 06:42 AM	#14
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Todd, to answer your questions about the CMOS and lens ramping, they are murder. I hate both of these things about the cam. Flashes cover half of the image and it looks bad. The 3.4 at full zoom is awful. I can no longer get the stunning closeups I got with the my old 12X cams. I'm learning to live with these things, but as I've said before there are nice things about the camera, you just have to decide if the pros outweigh the cons. Editing the files is not as bad as I expected and they perform OK on the timeline, but as I get into editing HD footage on a regular basis I plan on using the VASST tool to create proxies to make it more manageable. I forget the name of it, but its inexpensive and is supposedly works well. Neo Scene is another option but it costs twice as much and the required disc space for the resulting files is too much for me when I am dealing with 10-15 weddings at a time. There are those who will tell you the rolling shutter effects on camera flashes are not bad. I completely disagree. I've shot 4 weddings with the cameras and particularly when the room is very dark the effect is dreadful. If the ambient light is bright, it is not so bad. BTW, I have seen, as I mentioned before that Tom H referred to severe lens ramping on the Panasonic 150, but that was the first I heard about it. I would look closely at the specs on the Panasonic before buying, but I doubt it is a severe as it is on the FX1000/Z5.