Rolling Shutter??

Greg Laves · February 23rd, 2009, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

I may or not get the Z7, as I have threatened to do. This year I have to put a stop on my spending, and to take a loss on a new camera and to spend $2k on another one while people around me are losing their jobs doesn't seem practical or even morally acceptable, but how I see this is likely to change back and forth several times before I make a decision.

I think it is morally acceptable for you to do your part in the economic recovery by having a succesful business and continuing to grow your business. If buying a Z7 helps your business and you can afford it, then you should go for it.

Jeff Harper · February 23rd, 2009, 10:52 AM

Well Greg, as I mentioned I will flip-flop with this decision several times before I decide finally. I feel best when I look at this kind of thing after looking at it from many angles.

Todd Clark · February 23rd, 2009, 11:21 AM

Hi Jeff,

Why would you consider the Z7 if it also has cmos? Same rolling shutter issue.

I think I am looking into the XH-A1. I know the low light is not great but at least no Rolling shutter problems and not that severe of a lens ramp. I might have to see if I can rent one and check it out.

Tom Hardwick · February 23rd, 2009, 11:25 AM

Just to put you right Todd - the XH-A1 lens ramping is exactly the same as the FX1000's - f/1.6 to f/3.4 20x zoom.

Jeff Harper · February 23rd, 2009, 11:30 AM

I would look at the Z7 because of the lens ramping, or lack thereof. It's not gone, but it's much less.

And you are correct to look at the Canon also. I've been amazed at the level of "love" the Canon owners have for their cams.

In my case I know next to nothing about the Canons. All I do know about them is when I see footage shot with them I am usually very impressed. They are great cameras, and initially I didn't look at them because of poor auto focus (so I heard) and relatively poor low-light. I had been waiting for two years for the Sony HD replacement for the VX2100, so I never really looked anywhere else. That might have been a mistake on my part, maybe not.

Now, any Canon users out there don't beat me up because of my statement about the poor low-light...I am not stating that as fact but simply repeating what I heard. I must say I also read a number of people state they thought the Canons were just fine in low light, and from footage I've seen it would seem to be true.

Jeff Harper · February 23rd, 2009, 11:31 AM

Wow, Tom, that's too bad about the LR on the Canon. Todd you're just having a devil of a time getting this sorted out, aren't you?

Khoi Pham · February 23rd, 2009, 11:34 AM

Tom is right, I have the A1 and it is f3.4 at the end, my advice is learn how to use the camera, know its strong and weaknesses and use that to your advantage, and research before you buy, rolling shutter and lens ramping has been mentioned every since these camcorder came out, why buy it before you do your research and now hated it, if you think you can live with rolling shutter fine, if you think you can overcome lens ramping by using auto gain or stand a little closer or slower shutter then fine, if not don't buy it.

Tom Hardwick · February 23rd, 2009, 11:45 AM

Just so you know where your particular aperture value comes in the scale, have a look at this line-up of numbers. It shows all the half-stop values between f/1.4 and f/11

1.4 1.7 2 2.4 2.8 3.3 4 4.8 5.6 6.7 8 9.5 11

So a 20x zoom that starts at f/1.6 is actually slightly wider than the half-stop value at f/1.7, but it's f/3.4 is a smaller aperture than the half-stop at f/3.3. This means (in theory) that the lens loses nearly 2.5 stops as you zoom. As a comparison the Z7 loses just over half a stop - impressive for a 12x zoom.

I say 'in theory' because design and production tolerances mean that even if it loses 3 whole stops it will still pass inspection. And if it's a 18.7x zoom it will still pass inspection

tom.

Todd Clark · February 23rd, 2009, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Wow, Tom, that's too bad about the LR on the Canon. Todd you're just having a devil of a time getting this sorted out, aren't you?

You got that right!!! This is very frustrating. I am with you on the extrme close ups. They are a must and I don't want to fight the lens ramping.

I use GL2's now and I figured I could get past the low light performance of the XH-A1 but not if the lens ramping is the same. I guess the biggest deal breaker on the Sony is the cmos. I can't afford post production time with that problem. What to do, what to do??

Jeff Harper · February 23rd, 2009, 01:03 PM

How about a Canon CCD cam with interchangeable lenses? No rolling shutter, and your lens ramping is a non-issue.

Wow, why didn't I think of that earlier?

Ken Ross · February 23rd, 2009, 01:04 PM

Yeah, that shouldn't set you back more than $6,000-$7,000. :)

Ilya Spektor · February 23rd, 2009, 02:06 PM

There will be 2 new JVC camcorders available soon:
JVC Press Release - New Final-Cut-Pro™-Ready Solid State Camcorders

Ken Ross · February 23rd, 2009, 02:20 PM

Well the one you'd want to look at is the 700 with 1/3" imagers, but that puppy weighs about 9lbs! I for one wouldn't bother with the 100 with its 1/4" imaging chips. Chips that small will never perform as well as 1/3" or 2/3" imagers. The 100 is supposed to come in at around $4,000, so I have no idea what the price of the 700 would be.

Jeff Harper · February 23rd, 2009, 02:58 PM

I didn't mention them for the same reasons Ken.

Tom, that is priceless info on the Z7. Great stuff. Thanks for breaking it down.

Martin Duffy · February 23rd, 2009, 04:38 PM

On the subject of rolling Shutter I have just edited a dance concert two camera using a Z1 and FX1000.

The concert had a huge light show with lights flashing everywhere and it was really full on.

Happy to report that I had no issues at all with rolling shutter. The two cameras handled the lights the same.

The editing involved a bit of slow motion and I didn't see anything that made me go "Wow look how bad that is" in relation to rolling shutter.

The FX1000 was a little better in low light.

February 23rd, 2009, 11:34 AM	#52
Khoi Pham Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Posts: 747	Tom is right, I have the A1 and it is f3.4 at the end, my advice is learn how to use the camera, know its strong and weaknesses and use that to your advantage, and research before you buy, rolling shutter and lens ramping has been mentioned every since these camcorder came out, why buy it before you do your research and now hated it, if you think you can live with rolling shutter fine, if you think you can overcome lens ramping by using auto gain or stand a little closer or slower shutter then fine, if not don't buy it. __________________ Khoi Pham www.proeditproductions.com

February 23rd, 2009, 02:06 PM	#57
Ilya Spektor Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Bronx, NY Posts: 99	New JVC camcorders There will be 2 new JVC camcorders available soon: JVC Press Release - New Final-Cut-Pro™-Ready Solid State Camcorders __________________ Thank you.

February 23rd, 2009, 04:38 PM	#60
Martin Duffy Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 156	Rolling shuuter thumbs up On the subject of rolling Shutter I have just edited a dance concert two camera using a Z1 and FX1000. The concert had a huge light show with lights flashing everywhere and it was really full on. Happy to report that I had no issues at all with rolling shutter. The two cameras handled the lights the same. The editing involved a bit of slow motion and I didn't see anything that made me go "Wow look how bad that is" in relation to rolling shutter. The FX1000 was a little better in low light.

February 23rd, 2009, 10:52 AM	#47
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Well Greg, as I mentioned I will flip-flop with this decision several times before I decide finally. I feel best when I look at this kind of thing after looking at it from many angles.

February 23rd, 2009, 11:21 AM	#48
Todd Clark Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Parma, Oh Posts: 172	Hi Jeff, Why would you consider the Z7 if it also has cmos? Same rolling shutter issue. I think I am looking into the XH-A1. I know the low light is not great but at least no Rolling shutter problems and not that severe of a lens ramp. I might have to see if I can rent one and check it out.

February 23rd, 2009, 11:25 AM	#49
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Just to put you right Todd - the XH-A1 lens ramping is exactly the same as the FX1000's - f/1.6 to f/3.4 20x zoom.

February 23rd, 2009, 11:30 AM	#50
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	I would look at the Z7 because of the lens ramping, or lack thereof. It's not gone, but it's much less. And you are correct to look at the Canon also. I've been amazed at the level of "love" the Canon owners have for their cams. In my case I know next to nothing about the Canons. All I do know about them is when I see footage shot with them I am usually very impressed. They are great cameras, and initially I didn't look at them because of poor auto focus (so I heard) and relatively poor low-light. I had been waiting for two years for the Sony HD replacement for the VX2100, so I never really looked anywhere else. That might have been a mistake on my part, maybe not. Now, any Canon users out there don't beat me up because of my statement about the poor low-light...I am not stating that as fact but simply repeating what I heard. I must say I also read a number of people state they thought the Canons were just fine in low light, and from footage I've seen it would seem to be true.

February 23rd, 2009, 11:31 AM	#51
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Wow, Tom, that's too bad about the LR on the Canon. Todd you're just having a devil of a time getting this sorted out, aren't you?

February 23rd, 2009, 11:45 AM	#53
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Just so you know where your particular aperture value comes in the scale, have a look at this line-up of numbers. It shows all the half-stop values between f/1.4 and f/11 1.4 1.7 2 2.4 2.8 3.3 4 4.8 5.6 6.7 8 9.5 11 So a 20x zoom that starts at f/1.6 is actually slightly wider than the half-stop value at f/1.7, but it's f/3.4 is a smaller aperture than the half-stop at f/3.3. This means (in theory) that the lens loses nearly 2.5 stops as you zoom. As a comparison the Z7 loses just over half a stop - impressive for a 12x zoom. I say 'in theory' because design and production tolerances mean that even if it loses 3 whole stops it will still pass inspection. And if it's a 18.7x zoom it will still pass inspection tom.

February 23rd, 2009, 01:03 PM	#55
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	How about a Canon CCD cam with interchangeable lenses? No rolling shutter, and your lens ramping is a non-issue. Wow, why didn't I think of that earlier?

February 23rd, 2009, 01:04 PM	#56
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Yeah, that shouldn't set you back more than $6,000-$7,000. :)

February 23rd, 2009, 02:20 PM	#58
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Well the one you'd want to look at is the 700 with 1/3" imagers, but that puppy weighs about 9lbs! I for one wouldn't bother with the 100 with its 1/4" imaging chips. Chips that small will never perform as well as 1/3" or 2/3" imagers. The 100 is supposed to come in at around $4,000, so I have no idea what the price of the 700 would be.

February 23rd, 2009, 02:58 PM	#59
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	I didn't mention them for the same reasons Ken. Tom, that is priceless info on the Z7. Great stuff. Thanks for breaking it down.