HVR Z5 exceptional ignore the rolling shutter malarky

Robin Burrows · December 27th, 2008, 09:36 PM

At the end of the day if you dont like it you have no choice but to buy a Canon or a Panasonic.
I just feel that Sony have given me better reliability in snow ice, wind water sand etc and when it has packed in they have fixed it under prime support and got it back to me wihtin 10 days.

Id prefer this support to a canon and wait ages to be charged a fortune.
The XH A1 is one of my favorite cams though. Just only for home use.
Robin

Ken Ross · December 27th, 2008, 09:42 PM

Robin, what do you think about the possibility of the viewfinder simply being an LED backlit LCD?

Ken Ross · December 27th, 2008, 09:45 PM

Robin, one other question. When push comes to shove, which camera do you feel produces the best picture quality, the A1 or the Z5?

Tom Roper · December 27th, 2008, 10:43 PM

Robin,
I'm not trying to shoot you down in flames. What I was saying, I went down in flames myself for passing along the misinformation, but after that, I asked you to explain your sources, you did that, everything is fine. No worries, thanks for your comments.

Tom Hardwick · December 28th, 2008, 03:24 AM

The Z7 (and now the Z5) might well have higher resolution multi-coated (and slightly smaller) screens than the Z1, but have you seen a Z1 and a Z7 side-by side under direct sunlight?

The Z1 wins by a mile, and that's simply because the image is visible. Ah, but we do a natty magnetic-catch screen Hoodman for the Z7 sir, the salesman informed me. That's as maybe, but in my run 'n' gun work any more fiddling about with clip-on this and that is time I'm not running and gunning.

tom.

William Ellwood · December 28th, 2008, 05:28 AM

We hear that the modern sony cams have great viewfinders.
What I'm looking forward to with a Z5's viewfinder/sidescreen is an image that looks sharp enough to clearly identify if you're in-focus properly and that sees virtually the full image that will be recorded - which is something I'm not used to with a VX2100 (I blamed that on the fact that is a consumer cam).
I personally feel that a sidescreen doesn't need to be bright enough for direct sunlight use. The sidescreen image should be bright enough to see well in broad daylight though.

Robin - I've not been able to contact Preston's last week. If the price has gone significantly up, I'll have to wait a bit until more stores actually have these cams.

Uli Mors · December 28th, 2008, 01:25 PM

just watched the "60 days in the life of B. Spears" docu on german TV, some scenes had heavy flashlights - with typical rolling shutter fragments, probably shot with EX1.

Just an example how in many cases content counts, not the "perfect picture".

ULi

Robin Burrows · December 28th, 2008, 02:54 PM

Thankyou all for being kind, Im still learning to enterpret things on line. Its more difficult than in person and I only recently started to post here.

I think the Z5 is a batter camera than the A1 for profeesionals but the A1 for amateurs.

Purely because for the price it has XLR inputs excellent flexibility and good picture.

The Z5 is more expensive but is sharper and the viewfinder is 100 times better in size and resolution. It has a multitude of options on the audio and video, it shoots DVCAM, it has a great mike, the lens rings are silky smooth and one is assignable to shutter or aperture. The auto focus and image stabilization are not as good as the XH A1 but very good non the less. Its close but th eZ5 has true progressive and uses the first run of new technology.
It will improve maybe by firmware maybe by a new model but not in th enext 2-3 years maybe even 4.
I need to do a proper test on it when I get back to work but I am away for 2 weeks. Work may well do or have done tests on them anyway if the customers have requested or request it.

Backlights are normally CCFL or electroluminescent sheeting unless passive reflective which this is not. LEDs so not have the luminance and power to illuminate the whole screen. And normally one would use a single white source not three coloured ones. Your guess is as good as mine at the moment.

Tom Ive used the Z7 Z5 and Z1 in sunlight. I never shoot at sun unless its a sunset. Direct sunlight is great if you use an ND filter but even so I have stunning pictures from a Z5 pin sharp with good depth of field good control and less pixel bleed, image saturation. I mostly use underwater but I have stunning pics of birds of prey, people and boats one white in direct sunlight on a bright day no clouds, clear blue sea factor 30 sun cream.
Wow was I pleased. Not saturated at all and plenty of detail.

My issue is I use DVCAM for capture for SD as for HD if you capture in HDV it compresses th ehell out of it to fit a tape then down converts. If you capture DVCAM or DV it compresses less to fit on the same tape so as with the BBC you get less artifacts.

The Z1 while good is better than my PDX10s but useless at night or underwater in cloudy conditions. The only good bit is you can get a Gates housing and Fathom imaging lenses for it., in my opinion the best. Also the fringing and aberration on the Z1 is worse than the Z5.

As I said before and others have repeater all cameras no matter what we think are like screwdrivers and hammers. Are you using screws or nails? Use the right tool for the job. If your not professional get an XH A1 or just get what you want and accept it for what it is.

Secondly its what you film and how you film it not with what you film it with. If you film amazing footage they may ask what format and bit rate it is but they wont be interested in what it was taken with as long as they get it. I have used SR12 TRV950 and PDX10Ps to do pro filming on the surface in direct sunlight and underwater and Im by most means an amateur.

Thus anyone can do things if they make best use of what they have and keep trying.

Robin Burrows · December 28th, 2008, 03:02 PM

Excuse the grammar Im very busy and was negligent.

For my purposes the housing for the XHA1 is about 5K where as its several K less for the Z1 they both perform similarly in low light.
After tests showed their true colours other than the signal to noise ratio not so good on canons the numbers are never calibrated on the same scales so you cant compare. They are all much of a muchness.
The Canon XHA1 is actually better than the Z1 to 0 gain but wiht gain the Z1 or V1 are improvements.

The Z5 is noticeably better but not stupidly better.
Robin

Ken Ross · December 28th, 2008, 04:23 PM

Robin, thanks much for the responses, I'm sure this helps people looking into the segment of the market. It's interesting that you found the Z5 sharper than the A1...good to know. The new "G" lens may be helping out here.

Robin Burrows · December 28th, 2008, 04:42 PM

It is but only at 1:1 wide. At full wide there is som espherical abheration but you woud expect this. There is also a crossover at tele which it becomes softer with increased abberation through the zoom. There is slight fringing but its not so noticeable as the Z1.

The lens on the A1 is exceptional. The Sony is an improvement which justifies there purchase/working agreement of Minolta/Konica.
Hopefully it will improve and may be more financially viable if not branded Carl Zeiss.

I like it if I dont get on with it it will go back and Ill stick with Z1s and XH A1s till Sony sort it. I avoided the EX1 because of it being the first full HD non tape camera on the market as I do not want to buy in to the development of the range just because it has Cine Alta on it.

Ive heard lots of good new s about development and Sony told me they have spent years on the compression algorithms to make the 4:2:0 Long Gop system viable and good quality. They also reckon you should be able to get near 4:2:2 out of it with the right down convention algorithms. Ill take it with a pinch of salt for till I can look into it.

I do not like variable bit rate Long gop due to the artifacts and sharpness issues on certain panning and motion.

Still its fun to try it all and see where it is all going. If it was really that bad Sony would know they couldn't sell any so wouldn't put it out there in interesting times like this.

Lets see how it pans out. Ill test the Z5 practically over the next 12 days and let you know how it worked on my return on the 12th. See if I can break it using sun wind sea sand salt heat and cold, motion and vibration.
Robin

Robin Burrows · December 28th, 2008, 04:45 PM

Oh and one more point. Dont zoom in on dark places. You loose several stops on the G lens at full zoom and can notice the noise if its dark and you are using more than 12dB gain.

I have limited it to 2, 9 or 12 and keep an eye on the conditions.

Dont bother with max 18dB gain or hyper gain they are pointless unless you are shooting soldiers in sandy places at night but then you may use a camera without a IR filter and shoot night shot with an illuminator.
R

Ken Ross · December 28th, 2008, 04:46 PM

Robin, anything that's bugging you about the Z5 that would make you return it as you said? I sense some doubt after your initial rave.

Ken Ross · December 28th, 2008, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin Burrows

Oh and one more point. Dont zoom in on dark places. You loose several stops on the G lens at full zoom and can notice the noise if its dark and you are using more than 12dB gain.

I have limited it to 2, 9 or 12 and keep an eye on the conditions.

Dont bother with max 18dB gain or hyper gain they are pointless unless you are shooting soldiers in sandy places at night but then you may use a camera without a IR filter and shoot night shot with an illuminator.
R

I've always set my gain limit no higher than 12. Thanks.

Robin Burrows · December 28th, 2008, 05:38 PM

Meant 3 not 2.

You can set up a lot on the camera in picture profile in similar way to the canons. there is a whole menu dedicated to crispness and sharpness settings not to mention the knee, gamma, colour etc. Its the most number of options into picture profile setting I have seen from a low end Sony. Its not as slick as canon and maybe the sharpness overall isnt quite as sparkly but if you bump it up a bit its good. like th canon out of the box its not quite as good and Im waiting for people to start sharing their profiles! I have found it merges well with digi beta and cinefilm if set up right.

December 27th, 2008, 09:36 PM	#31
Robin Burrows New Boot Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Worcestershire England Posts: 22	Rolling shutter At the end of the day if you dont like it you have no choice but to buy a Canon or a Panasonic. I just feel that Sony have given me better reliability in snow ice, wind water sand etc and when it has packed in they have fixed it under prime support and got it back to me wihtin 10 days. Id prefer this support to a canon and wait ages to be charged a fortune. The XH A1 is one of my favorite cams though. Just only for home use. Robin

December 28th, 2008, 05:28 AM	#36
William Ellwood Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Consett UK Posts: 110	We hear that the modern sony cams have great viewfinders. What I'm looking forward to with a Z5's viewfinder/sidescreen is an image that looks sharp enough to clearly identify if you're in-focus properly and that sees virtually the full image that will be recorded - which is something I'm not used to with a VX2100 (I blamed that on the fact that is a consumer cam). I personally feel that a sidescreen doesn't need to be bright enough for direct sunlight use. The sidescreen image should be bright enough to see well in broad daylight though. Robin - I've not been able to contact Preston's last week. If the price has gone significantly up, I'll have to wait a bit until more stores actually have these cams. __________________ Billy Ellwood is on Vimeo. Film club www.newcastleaca.co.uk i7 7700k, Asus z270f, 32gb ram, Windows 10, Premiere CS6.

December 28th, 2008, 01:25 PM	#37
Uli Mors Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 565	Rolling Shutter / Britney Spears just watched the "60 days in the life of B. Spears" docu on german TV, some scenes had heavy flashlights - with typical rolling shutter fragments, probably shot with EX1. Just an example how in many cases content counts, not the "perfect picture". ULi

December 28th, 2008, 02:54 PM	#38
Robin Burrows New Boot Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Worcestershire England Posts: 22	Z5 a1, z1, z zzzzzz Thankyou all for being kind, Im still learning to enterpret things on line. Its more difficult than in person and I only recently started to post here. I think the Z5 is a batter camera than the A1 for profeesionals but the A1 for amateurs. Purely because for the price it has XLR inputs excellent flexibility and good picture. The Z5 is more expensive but is sharper and the viewfinder is 100 times better in size and resolution. It has a multitude of options on the audio and video, it shoots DVCAM, it has a great mike, the lens rings are silky smooth and one is assignable to shutter or aperture. The auto focus and image stabilization are not as good as the XH A1 but very good non the less. Its close but th eZ5 has true progressive and uses the first run of new technology. It will improve maybe by firmware maybe by a new model but not in th enext 2-3 years maybe even 4. I need to do a proper test on it when I get back to work but I am away for 2 weeks. Work may well do or have done tests on them anyway if the customers have requested or request it. Backlights are normally CCFL or electroluminescent sheeting unless passive reflective which this is not. LEDs so not have the luminance and power to illuminate the whole screen. And normally one would use a single white source not three coloured ones. Your guess is as good as mine at the moment. Tom Ive used the Z7 Z5 and Z1 in sunlight. I never shoot at sun unless its a sunset. Direct sunlight is great if you use an ND filter but even so I have stunning pictures from a Z5 pin sharp with good depth of field good control and less pixel bleed, image saturation. I mostly use underwater but I have stunning pics of birds of prey, people and boats one white in direct sunlight on a bright day no clouds, clear blue sea factor 30 sun cream. Wow was I pleased. Not saturated at all and plenty of detail. My issue is I use DVCAM for capture for SD as for HD if you capture in HDV it compresses th ehell out of it to fit a tape then down converts. If you capture DVCAM or DV it compresses less to fit on the same tape so as with the BBC you get less artifacts. The Z1 while good is better than my PDX10s but useless at night or underwater in cloudy conditions. The only good bit is you can get a Gates housing and Fathom imaging lenses for it., in my opinion the best. Also the fringing and aberration on the Z1 is worse than the Z5. As I said before and others have repeater all cameras no matter what we think are like screwdrivers and hammers. Are you using screws or nails? Use the right tool for the job. If your not professional get an XH A1 or just get what you want and accept it for what it is. Secondly its what you film and how you film it not with what you film it with. If you film amazing footage they may ask what format and bit rate it is but they wont be interested in what it was taken with as long as they get it. I have used SR12 TRV950 and PDX10Ps to do pro filming on the surface in direct sunlight and underwater and Im by most means an amateur. Thus anyone can do things if they make best use of what they have and keep trying.

December 28th, 2008, 04:42 PM	#41
Robin Burrows New Boot Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Worcestershire England Posts: 22	sharpness It is but only at 1:1 wide. At full wide there is som espherical abheration but you woud expect this. There is also a crossover at tele which it becomes softer with increased abberation through the zoom. There is slight fringing but its not so noticeable as the Z1. The lens on the A1 is exceptional. The Sony is an improvement which justifies there purchase/working agreement of Minolta/Konica. Hopefully it will improve and may be more financially viable if not branded Carl Zeiss. I like it if I dont get on with it it will go back and Ill stick with Z1s and XH A1s till Sony sort it. I avoided the EX1 because of it being the first full HD non tape camera on the market as I do not want to buy in to the development of the range just because it has Cine Alta on it. Ive heard lots of good new s about development and Sony told me they have spent years on the compression algorithms to make the 4:2:0 Long Gop system viable and good quality. They also reckon you should be able to get near 4:2:2 out of it with the right down convention algorithms. Ill take it with a pinch of salt for till I can look into it. I do not like variable bit rate Long gop due to the artifacts and sharpness issues on certain panning and motion. Still its fun to try it all and see where it is all going. If it was really that bad Sony would know they couldn't sell any so wouldn't put it out there in interesting times like this. Lets see how it pans out. Ill test the Z5 practically over the next 12 days and let you know how it worked on my return on the 12th. See if I can break it using sun wind sea sand salt heat and cold, motion and vibration. Robin

December 27th, 2008, 09:42 PM	#32
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Robin, what do you think about the possibility of the viewfinder simply being an LED backlit LCD?

December 27th, 2008, 09:45 PM	#33
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Robin, one other question. When push comes to shove, which camera do you feel produces the best picture quality, the A1 or the Z5?

December 27th, 2008, 10:43 PM	#34
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Robin, I'm not trying to shoot you down in flames. What I was saying, I went down in flames myself for passing along the misinformation, but after that, I asked you to explain your sources, you did that, everything is fine. No worries, thanks for your comments.

December 28th, 2008, 03:24 AM	#35
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	The Z7 (and now the Z5) might well have higher resolution multi-coated (and slightly smaller) screens than the Z1, but have you seen a Z1 and a Z7 side-by side under direct sunlight? The Z1 wins by a mile, and that's simply because the image is visible. Ah, but we do a natty magnetic-catch screen Hoodman for the Z7 sir, the salesman informed me. That's as maybe, but in my run 'n' gun work any more fiddling about with clip-on this and that is time I'm not running and gunning. tom.

December 28th, 2008, 03:02 PM	#39
Robin Burrows New Boot Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Worcestershire England Posts: 22	Excuse the grammar Im very busy and was negligent. For my purposes the housing for the XHA1 is about 5K where as its several K less for the Z1 they both perform similarly in low light. After tests showed their true colours other than the signal to noise ratio not so good on canons the numbers are never calibrated on the same scales so you cant compare. They are all much of a muchness. The Canon XHA1 is actually better than the Z1 to 0 gain but wiht gain the Z1 or V1 are improvements. The Z5 is noticeably better but not stupidly better. Robin

December 28th, 2008, 04:23 PM	#40
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Robin, thanks much for the responses, I'm sure this helps people looking into the segment of the market. It's interesting that you found the Z5 sharper than the A1...good to know. The new "G" lens may be helping out here.

December 28th, 2008, 04:45 PM	#42
Robin Burrows New Boot Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Worcestershire England Posts: 22	Oh and one more point. Dont zoom in on dark places. You loose several stops on the G lens at full zoom and can notice the noise if its dark and you are using more than 12dB gain. I have limited it to 2, 9 or 12 and keep an eye on the conditions. Dont bother with max 18dB gain or hyper gain they are pointless unless you are shooting soldiers in sandy places at night but then you may use a camera without a IR filter and shoot night shot with an illuminator. R

December 28th, 2008, 04:46 PM	#43
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Robin, anything that's bugging you about the Z5 that would make you return it as you said? I sense some doubt after your initial rave.

December 28th, 2008, 05:38 PM	#45
Robin Burrows New Boot Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Worcestershire England Posts: 22	Meant 3 not 2. You can set up a lot on the camera in picture profile in similar way to the canons. there is a whole menu dedicated to crispness and sharpness settings not to mention the knee, gamma, colour etc. Its the most number of options into picture profile setting I have seen from a low end Sony. Its not as slick as canon and maybe the sharpness overall isnt quite as sparkly but if you bump it up a bit its good. like th canon out of the box its not quite as good and Im waiting for people to start sharing their profiles! I have found it merges well with digi beta and cinefilm if set up right.