Wow... Rolling shutter at DVinfo.net

Scott Barnhill · December 16th, 2008, 12:23 AM

Now I know what people have been talking about. Here's a clip from Senderey Video who said he couldn't log in here and we could post it. Although some nice footage you can sure see the rolling shutter when other camera flashes go off. I was thinking about adding this camera or the Z5 to my arsenal along with the my XH-A1 but now having second thoughts.

Jennifer & Jonathan 11/26/08 on Vimeo

Erik Phairas · December 16th, 2008, 12:29 AM

that's it? The tiny effect and you are calling it all off? If you hadn't pointed it out I wouldn't have noticed. Do you think the customer noticed? I doubt it. Or more importantly, if they did notice, would they even care? The effect only last for the length of the flash..

Robert Bec · December 16th, 2008, 01:13 AM

unless you try the camera out then you will realize it's not an issue at all

Martin Duffy · December 16th, 2008, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Bec

unless you try the camera out then you will realize it's not an issue at all

I reckon in editing it may be a pain seeing it all the time but I guess we will have to live with it.

Is the rolling Shutter only in HD but not standard Def?

K.C. Luke · December 16th, 2008, 06:07 AM

Rolling Shutter will be a issue when you edit slow motion point where photo flash is just flash at the images you like. Normal playback it won't notice at all.

Stelios Christofides · December 16th, 2008, 03:06 PM

No customer will ever notice this. I have the FX7 and it only shows in slow motion, but in a way its like a "special effect" in the movie clip. Look at the advantages of these cameras and forget about the "rolling shutter" effect.

Stelios

Simon Wyndham · December 16th, 2008, 06:32 PM

It is a limitation. Like all things it is a case of living with the limitations. You could have a sensor that doesn't have these issues, but it would either cost a lot more, or would suffer from much lower resolution and other issues.

Think like your audience as well. A lot of things that you notice as a shooter and as an editor nobody else who isn't involved in video does.

The time to start really questioning is when the client does.

Adam Gold · December 16th, 2008, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Duffy

Is the rolling Shutter only in HD but not standard Def?

It's a CMOS issue, not an HD issue.

Scott Barnhill · December 17th, 2008, 12:51 AM

Points well taken...
I didn't through it out yet, but I'm waiting to see more footage and reviews. Thanks for your input, I wasn't thinking as a customer. The more I thought about it I'm not around flash photography much as yet, but I keep contemplating going back to weddings. I used to take stills back in the film days, very stressful. I'm hoping video is not as stressful.

Scott Barnhill · December 17th, 2008, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K.C. Luke

Rolling Shutter will be a issue when you edit slow motion point where photo flash is just flash at the images you like. Normal playback it won't notice at all.

After watching it again, you're right it was the slow motion where it showed up the most otherwise it wasn't nearly as noticeable.

Stelios Christofides · December 17th, 2008, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Barnhill

...I used to take stills back in the film days, very stressful. I'm hoping video is not as stressful.

Scott
Video is much, much more stressful than still photography but much, much more enjoyable!

Stelios

Tom Hardwick · December 18th, 2008, 01:08 PM

I'm with Scott, and I don't like it one little bit. It's bad enough at normal speed, but in slo-mo it just looks silly only lighting half or 1/3rd the frame.

Yes it's a limitation of the current CMOS state of play. They bring other advantages over CCDs, but in paparazzi situations they falter.

tom.

K.C. Luke · December 19th, 2008, 06:04 PM

Rolling Shutter I face the problem sine I get my 1st HDV cam FX7 than V1....all this 2 cam not really good on cmos. Very bad. Even EX1 do have much stronger lighting half or 1/3rd the frame as Tom say.

As I knew Videographer eyes do see much more than those normal eyes. I'm right :)

Cmos cam when is not photo flashing, I can say is good HDV images. Better than Old HAD 3CCD chip. Just to need 2 type of cam. CMOS or HAD 3CCD.

Greg Laves · December 19th, 2008, 10:53 PM

I will go on record saying that I do not like the banding if have seen on some videos. I am not sure a client would notice it, but I do and I don't care for it. I could probably figure out how to hide it in post but it would be better if editors didn't have to figure out how to hide unwanted artifacts. Editors already have too much to do.

But I have noticed on many sample videos that some of the time the CMOS cameras treat flashes just like any other CCD camera. While, occasionally, you get the objectionable band across a frame. I don't deal with flashes in my taping but I am curious if anyone has done any experimentation to try to figure out why it does it sometimes and not others. I have seen a sample of lightning recorded with a CMOS camera and it came out looking great and I have seen lightning shot by someone else with the same model camera and that footage was totally un-usable. Why the difference? Have any of you that are having these problems tried to figure out why it does it sometimes and not others? Is there some setting that could minimize or eliminate the problem? Iris opened up or closed down? Shutter faster or slower? Is it worse or better on auto settings or manual settings? There has to be some reason why it doesn't do it 100% of the time.

Perrone Ford · December 19th, 2008, 11:07 PM

Intensity of light and duration.

When the flash constitutes the bulk of the light hitting the sensors AND that flash is shorter than the time required to scan the sensors, then you get banding.

December 16th, 2008, 12:23 AM	#1
Scott Barnhill Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: San Diego, Ca Posts: 31	Wow... Rolling shutter Now I know what people have been talking about. Here's a clip from Senderey Video who said he couldn't log in here and we could post it. Although some nice footage you can sure see the rolling shutter when other camera flashes go off. I was thinking about adding this camera or the Z5 to my arsenal along with the my XH-A1 but now having second thoughts. Jennifer & Jonathan 11/26/08 on Vimeo

December 16th, 2008, 06:07 AM	#5
K.C. Luke Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 173	Rolling Shutter will be a issue when you edit slow motion point where photo flash is just flash at the images you like. Normal playback it won't notice at all. __________________ Edit on Adobe Creative Suite Production Premium CS5 Mac 64BIT

December 16th, 2008, 03:06 PM	#6
Stelios Christofides Trustee Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Nicosia, CYPRUS Posts: 1,080	No customer will ever notice this. I have the FX7 and it only shows in slow motion, but in a way its like a "special effect" in the movie clip. Look at the advantages of these cameras and forget about the "rolling shutter" effect. Stelios __________________ My Blog: http://steliosc.blogspot.com "I hope for nothing, I fear nothing, I am free" Nikos Kazantzakis

December 19th, 2008, 06:04 PM	#13
K.C. Luke Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 173	Rolling Shutter I face the problem sine I get my 1st HDV cam FX7 than V1....all this 2 cam not really good on cmos. Very bad. Even EX1 do have much stronger lighting half or 1/3rd the frame as Tom say. As I knew Videographer eyes do see much more than those normal eyes. I'm right :) Cmos cam when is not photo flashing, I can say is good HDV images. Better than Old HAD 3CCD chip. Just to need 2 type of cam. CMOS or HAD 3CCD. __________________ Edit on Adobe Creative Suite Production Premium CS5 Mac 64BIT

December 19th, 2008, 11:07 PM	#15
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Intensity of light and duration. When the flash constitutes the bulk of the light hitting the sensors AND that flash is shorter than the time required to scan the sensors, then you get banding. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

December 16th, 2008, 12:29 AM	#2
Erik Phairas Major Player Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 628	that's it? The tiny effect and you are calling it all off? If you hadn't pointed it out I wouldn't have noticed. Do you think the customer noticed? I doubt it. Or more importantly, if they did notice, would they even care? The effect only last for the length of the flash..

December 16th, 2008, 01:13 AM	#3
Robert Bec Major Player Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 358	unless you try the camera out then you will realize it's not an issue at all

December 16th, 2008, 06:32 PM	#7
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	It is a limitation. Like all things it is a case of living with the limitations. You could have a sensor that doesn't have these issues, but it would either cost a lot more, or would suffer from much lower resolution and other issues. Think like your audience as well. A lot of things that you notice as a shooter and as an editor nobody else who isn't involved in video does. The time to start really questioning is when the client does.

December 17th, 2008, 12:51 AM	#9
Scott Barnhill Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: San Diego, Ca Posts: 31	Points well taken... I didn't through it out yet, but I'm waiting to see more footage and reviews. Thanks for your input, I wasn't thinking as a customer. The more I thought about it I'm not around flash photography much as yet, but I keep contemplating going back to weddings. I used to take stills back in the film days, very stressful. I'm hoping video is not as stressful.

December 18th, 2008, 01:08 PM	#12
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	I'm with Scott, and I don't like it one little bit. It's bad enough at normal speed, but in slo-mo it just looks silly only lighting half or 1/3rd the frame. Yes it's a limitation of the current CMOS state of play. They bring other advantages over CCDs, but in paparazzi situations they falter. tom.

December 19th, 2008, 10:53 PM	#14
Greg Laves Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Corpus Christi, TX Posts: 640	I will go on record saying that I do not like the banding if have seen on some videos. I am not sure a client would notice it, but I do and I don't care for it. I could probably figure out how to hide it in post but it would be better if editors didn't have to figure out how to hide unwanted artifacts. Editors already have too much to do. But I have noticed on many sample videos that some of the time the CMOS cameras treat flashes just like any other CCD camera. While, occasionally, you get the objectionable band across a frame. I don't deal with flashes in my taping but I am curious if anyone has done any experimentation to try to figure out why it does it sometimes and not others. I have seen a sample of lightning recorded with a CMOS camera and it came out looking great and I have seen lightning shot by someone else with the same model camera and that footage was totally un-usable. Why the difference? Have any of you that are having these problems tried to figure out why it does it sometimes and not others? Is there some setting that could minimize or eliminate the problem? Iris opened up or closed down? Shutter faster or slower? Is it worse or better on auto settings or manual settings? There has to be some reason why it doesn't do it 100% of the time.