mounting small diameter microphones on Z1

[Vito DeFilippo]

Johan,

When you post, do you see a box called "Additional Options" below where you type? There's a button there called "Manage Attachments" which lets you upload photos.

You might have to be a member for a certain minimum time first, I'm not sure. I know it's that way before you can access the classifieds....

[Johan Bollen]

I can't find any 'manage attachment' button, so I suppose you're right. Maybe sometime soon.

[Bob Grant]

As promised here are some photos of what I've done.
In the final assmebly I've chosen to use the spacers from the original Rode part. No need at all for these, I only had screws that were too long without them. Or maybe you think it silly to waste them so might as well put them to some use.
You don't need to buy the same Rode fitting either, any of the ones with the same suspension mount will do as you don't need the rest, so which ever one is the cheapest I'd go for that, we just happened to already have the SM5.

And yes I know there's a "n' missing from mounting :)

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Originally Posted by Bob Grant

As promised here are some photos of what I've done.

And you don't get any motor or zoom or handling noises with the mic so close to the camera?

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Originally Posted by Johan Bollen

For handling noise the other solutions posted here should work better because they use a more flexible suspension (If I understand Carlos well) and are farther away from the camera. The disadvantage is that they seem to put more strain on the micholder, are heavier and bigger. Until now the handling noise of my adapted micholder didn’t bother me, but my experience with isn’t that extensive.

Well, maybe I didn't explain myself that well. Because what I say is that such mic suspensions as Rode's or PSC's, even if they are an improvement over simple mic holders, they do not filter mechanical noises as they should.

A car comparison comes to my mind: remember the Citroën 2CV? Remember how it floated slowly as it moved along and it was such a soft car to go in?

Well, a mic should do the same. It should float inside the suspension.

When they rubber string has to isolate and also grip the mic, instead of having a plastic or metal clip that grips the mic, it's doing two jobs, and it has to be a compromise. You can't adjust the string "floating" capability to the mic you are using, using softer strings, because the mic may slip away. As a result, IMHO, the mechanical isolation suffers.

Some mics, like the Oktavas MC02, are more sensitive to mechanical noises. Some are less sensitive. Usually the best mics are more sensitive, almost by definition.

Putting the mic further up front will put the mic away from the camera noises (whirring, zoom, etc.), but some mechanical handling noises will still be there.

About the camera noises, put your ear to the camera and listen: if you hear them, the mic also will.

[Bob Grant]

Originally Posted by Carlos E. Martinez

And you don't get any motor or zoom or handling noises with the mic so close to the camera?

Not that we've noticed. In anycase if the mic were to pickup sound through the air I can't see how moving it a few inches away is going to help much. The problem seems to be more mechanical isolation from vibration coming through the camera body. Every camera has this issue, what seems to make the Z1 unique is it doesn't ship with a mic so everyone's buying shotguns or hypercardiods to use on it and these are heavier than the kind of mic Sony used to ship with most of their cameras. It's quite possible too that that cheap, plastic mic has more internal isolation than the 416 etc.

More to the point, any microphone mounted on a camera is a seriously compromised proposition anyway. The ideal solution is not to have the mic on the camera in the first place. If you were trying to record serious audio firstly you wouldn't be using the HDV audio tracks and secondly you'd have the mic off the camera and close to the sound source. In most situations where you're forced to use an on camera mic the ambient noise is going to be pretty significant anyway.

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Originally Posted by Bob Grant

Not that we've noticed. In anycase if the mic were to pickup sound through the air I can't see how moving it a few inches away is going to help much.

Who's saying a few inches? The mic should be at least 10" away from the camera, up front or to the side.

The problem seems to be more mechanical isolation from vibration coming through the camera body. Every camera has this issue,

They certainly do. It will also depend on the level setting, what you are recording and where you are recording it.

The Z1 has a continuous noise that you can hear if you go close to the LCD screen.

what seems to make the Z1 unique is it doesn't ship with a mic so everyone's buying shotguns or hypercardiods to use on it and these are heavier than the kind of mic Sony used to ship with most of their cameras. It's quite possible too that that cheap, plastic mic has more internal isolation than the 416 etc.

True. The mic coming with the PDX10, which I also have, works fine with the Z1 and has some mechanical isolation. I also gripped an AKG Blue Line there, for ambience, and it worked fine. But for dialogue audio you have to go closer.

The support being plastic certainly doesn't help. The old support style, like on the PD170, PDX10 or V1, is much better.

More to the point, any microphone mounted on a camera is a seriously compromised proposition anyway. The ideal solution is not to have the mic on the camera in the first place. If you were trying to record serious audio firstly you wouldn't be using the HDV audio tracks and secondly you'd have the mic off the camera and close to the sound source. In most situations where you're forced to use an on camera mic the ambient noise is going to be pretty significant anyway.

Completely agreed. Only on subjects being very close to the camera (less than 2 feet) you can get away with it. But I still think you should go closer with the mic, using some stick or tube to get there.

I remember an article on American Cinematographer, many years ago, where they used a telescopic radio antena to go up front from the camera, with the directional mic head (probably a Schoeps) hanging at the tip. This is how it should be at least, and even so be critical on subject to mic distance.

[Bob Grant]

Just one word of caution. The Z1 has a very wide lens and it's easy to get the on camera mic in shot. I've seen quite a bit of dead cat fur in the top of frame in Z1 footage. The viewfinder doesn't show you all the frame so you'll likely only find out in post.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Amen. I shot for a couple hours before reviewing my footage, and not being in all-scan...included some fur in the shot. Very disappointing. It could be cropped, but it shouldn't have been there.
Assign All scan to a button to occasionally see what's on the fringes of your shots.

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Assign All scan to a button to occasionally see what's on the fringes of your shots.

Yes, I did that. But it didn't prevent from some case where the sunshade shows a little on the sides with the Century 0.6 WA. I should make it a routine which I haven't yet got to.

About the mic, I think it's better to put it to the side and not use the Z1's holder. Unfortunately the Bracket 1 is too short for the Z1.

[Bob Grant]

Originally Posted by Carlos E. Martinez

Yes, I did that. But it didn't prevent from some case where the sunshade shows a little on the sides with the Century 0.6 WA. I should make it a routine which I haven't yet got to.

About the mic, I think it's better to put it to the side and not use the Z1's holder. Unfortunately the Bracket 1 is too short for the Z1.

We've managed to pickup a bracket thingy that goes from under the camera and then up around the side with reasonable clearance. If you really wanted to get the mic a good distance away from the camera plus mount a mic receiver or two this is ideal. Has a fitting to take a release plate on the bottom as well.
We don't use them much as they make the whole rig too big for our flight cases but for your own use they might be ideal. We've added a handle on the bottom so you've got a better grip. I'll try to remember to find out who makes them, not overly expensive either and you're not relying on anything on the camera to take the load.

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Originally Posted by Bob Grant

We've managed to pickup a bracket thingy that goes from under the camera and then up around the side with reasonable clearance. If you really wanted to get the mic a good distance away from the camera plus mount a mic receiver or two this is ideal. Has a fitting to take a release plate on the bottom as well.
We don't use them much as they make the whole rig too big for our flight cases but for your own use they might be ideal. We've added a handle on the bottom so you've got a better grip. I'll try to remember to find out who makes them, not overly expensive either and you're not relying on anything on the camera to take the load.

Yes, finding a bracket that is not large is not easy. There was a time when there were a few, but now they seem to be gone.

What I will probably be doing is using my DIY figrig to hold stuff below the camera, and of course put a mic suspension on the upper side of the wheel.

As I will also be modifying my matte box, so the tubes go up to the back, it might be an idea to secure a flexible arm from it and hold the mic suspension at the end.

[Johan Bollen]

I just did a little experiment. I put a 416 microphone in my adapted micholder and recorded when I was rubbing the camera, pushing buttons, etc…. Then I put the same mic on a microphone stand in about the same position and distance from the camera, the only difference being that there was no contact between the mic and the cam (just air between) and recorded the same handling of the camera. I loaded the two files into my NLE and compared the audio. Well, there is certainly more noise with the mic in the micholder. But there is also some noise recorded when the mic isn’t touching the cam at all (especially the rubbing of the camera handle). This would be noise directly picked up by the mic. Doing this experiment should give you an indication how much noise is transmitted through the body of the camera. Actually I have learned that it is quit a lot. Make sure to have a firm grip of the camera when using the mic in an on camera micholder is the conclusion I made for myself. Thanks to you all I've learned a lesson. Luckily I used a boom in the short I just finished.

Johan

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Originally Posted by Johan Bollen

I just did a little experiment. I put a 416 microphone in my adapted micholder and recorded when I was rubbing the camera, pushing buttons, etc…. Then I put the same mic on a microphone stand in about the same position and distance from the camera, the only difference being that there was no contact between the mic and the cam (just air between) and recorded the same handling of the camera. I loaded the two files into my NLE and compared the audio. Well, there is certainly more noise with the mic in the micholder. But there is also some noise recorded when the mic isn’t touching the cam at all (especially the rubbing of the camera handle). This would be noise directly picked up by the mic. Doing this experiment should give you an indication how much noise is transmitted through the body of the camera. Actually I have learned that it is quit a lot. Make sure to have a firm grip of the camera when using the mic in an on camera micholder is the conclusion I made for myself. Thanks to you all I've learned a lesson. Luckily I used a boom in the short I just finished.

I would pick your last sentence as the most important fact to come out from this thread: no camera placement, isolated or whatever will ever replace a boom. Or even a lapel mic, wireless or not.

The camera handling noises shouldn't be present if the mic is not on the camera, except if you are using a very dead room or the mic level is very high. To make the test right you should have a person talking at normal voice and see how much noise you can pick.

If you still pick handling noises they might be because the mic is not isolating them through its directionality. But as I said, the mic should be at least 10" or more from the camera in order to be safe.

That doesn't mean that you can't record a situation with an on-camera mic, as long as the mic level setting is not too high and you are very careful with the camera handling. As you said you should have a firm grip and try not to move your fingers around.

[Johan Bollen]

But as I said, the mic should be at least 10" or more from the camera in order to be safe.

carlos, I think that my test has shown me that the kind of materials used are more important than mic to camera distance when dealing with handling noise. That's why I think, when it comes to handling noise Bob Grant's solution could really work because he uses a good suspension although it is close to the camera.

Johan