black and white ? Your ideas please. at DVinfo.net

Kurth Bousman · January 23rd, 2006, 05:30 PM

What are the different ways of shooting b&w ? Is it true that shooting b&w in camera will be easier on the hdv codec ? Is it true that the green channel has full resolution , but the blue and red not ? What are YOUR favorite ways of getting great b&w images out of the fx1/z1. All ideas welcome. thanks -Kurth

Marcus Marchesseault · January 23rd, 2006, 06:31 PM

I haven't tried this, so experiment yourself. If you shoot B&W in-cam, there are lots of filters made for B&W photography that become viable. Just look at B&H in the filters section for filters for black and white photography.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...arch&Q=&ci=113

Also, I'm sure that the reduction in color data can't hurt in the compression. The only downside is that you can't go back to color if you change your mind.

Evan C. King · January 23rd, 2006, 07:16 PM

Doesn't the FX1/Z1 have a way of pulling certain colours out? That's something cool you could look into doing depending on your type of project.

Boyd Ostroff · January 23rd, 2006, 07:28 PM

Yes, the "color correct" function can isolate either one or two specific colors within a black and white image.

The same function can be used to "revise" two colors also, and although it hasn't received a lot of attention it seems to be a potentially powerful tool. With the limited colorspace in HDV, there may be some advantage to making basic adjustments in color before recording to tape.

Keith Wakeham · January 23rd, 2006, 09:29 PM

I think you mean luma vs the 2 chormas not green vs red/blue. The image comes off the ccd's as 4:4:4 rgb but is converted to YUV at 4:2:0 because peoples eyes are more sensitive to brightness changes rather than colour changes.

So when you shoot B/W in camera it should be dropoing the colour information before it hits the mpeg 2 engine. This should mean that their is more available data for the luma (b/w) channel and should equal more detail.

If your going for pure b/w with no colour what so ever and not planning on doing much..ummm... colour correcting (well theirs no colour, what should i be calling it then?) then shooting b/w in camera could be perferable. Now if you want to do some sort of FX like being selective with a colour (see movie payback, all kind of blusih) then you might be better off shooting colour and doing b/w and colour correcting in post - this is a much more time consuming process.

Thats just my take on it, hope it helps and good luck.

Kurth Bousman · January 24th, 2006, 05:10 PM

thanks Keith - so it will help motion artifacting in hdv to shoot incamera b&w?

Jon Fordham · January 26th, 2006, 03:02 PM

Kurth,

Motion artifacting is a seperate issue. But yes, shooting B&W in camera will reduce the amount of data that needs to be compressed. And with HDV, you need all the help you can get. I've shot a couple projects with the FX1 in B&W. And it is a noticeably superior image.

If you're shooting B&W, I would suggest that you use the CinemaTone gamma setting, and over expose by about half a stop. This should give you stronger blacks and whiter whites.

If you haven't had a chance to read my post concerning the making of "Hip Hop's Dead", you should as it was shot in B&W.

You can find it here:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=58762

Kurth Bousman · January 26th, 2006, 05:03 PM

thanks Jon . Any other suggestions for working with the footage in post . I use fcp 5. Kurth

Jon Fordham · January 26th, 2006, 09:41 PM

Sorry Kurth, I'm not an editor...

Kurth Bousman · January 26th, 2006, 11:43 PM

Jon - finally got the time to read your post on shooting the "Hip Hop's Dead ". I thought you said you weren't an editor ! Yes , I've been using Mr. Nattress' filters for over a year but have not tried them in b&w.That will be a good place to start. thanks again for your time. Kurth

Jon Fordham · January 27th, 2006, 09:01 AM

Kurth,

I'm really not an editor. But I do have a little experience in desktop post. Don't get me wrong, I know how to use FCP and piece things together. But that's a far cry from being an editor. The same as anyone can pick up a a camera and get a picture. But that's nowhere near being a cinematographer!

Anyway, glad you enjoyed the article. There will be some still frames and and a QT version posted in the articles section soon.

Oh and Keith, in film we call it timing...

January 23rd, 2006, 05:30 PM	#1
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	black and white ? Your ideas please. What are the different ways of shooting b&w ? Is it true that shooting b&w in camera will be easier on the hdv codec ? Is it true that the green channel has full resolution , but the blue and red not ? What are YOUR favorite ways of getting great b&w images out of the fx1/z1. All ideas welcome. thanks -Kurth

January 23rd, 2006, 09:29 PM	#5
Keith Wakeham Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: St. John's, NL, Canada Posts: 416	I think you mean luma vs the 2 chormas not green vs red/blue. The image comes off the ccd's as 4:4:4 rgb but is converted to YUV at 4:2:0 because peoples eyes are more sensitive to brightness changes rather than colour changes. So when you shoot B/W in camera it should be dropoing the colour information before it hits the mpeg 2 engine. This should mean that their is more available data for the luma (b/w) channel and should equal more detail. If your going for pure b/w with no colour what so ever and not planning on doing much..ummm... colour correcting (well theirs no colour, what should i be calling it then?) then shooting b/w in camera could be perferable. Now if you want to do some sort of FX like being selective with a colour (see movie payback, all kind of blusih) then you might be better off shooting colour and doing b/w and colour correcting in post - this is a much more time consuming process. Thats just my take on it, hope it helps and good luck. __________________ www.engr.mun.ca/~wakeham/index.htm

January 26th, 2006, 03:02 PM	#7
Jon Fordham Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 242	Kurth, Motion artifacting is a seperate issue. But yes, shooting B&W in camera will reduce the amount of data that needs to be compressed. And with HDV, you need all the help you can get. I've shot a couple projects with the FX1 in B&W. And it is a noticeably superior image. If you're shooting B&W, I would suggest that you use the CinemaTone gamma setting, and over expose by about half a stop. This should give you stronger blacks and whiter whites. If you haven't had a chance to read my post concerning the making of "Hip Hop's Dead", you should as it was shot in B&W. You can find it here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=58762 __________________ Jon Fordham Director of Photography www.jonfordham.com

January 26th, 2006, 09:41 PM	#9
Jon Fordham Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 242	Sorry Kurth, I'm not an editor... __________________ Jon Fordham Director of Photography www.jonfordham.com

January 27th, 2006, 09:01 AM	#11
Jon Fordham Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 242	Kurth, I'm really not an editor. But I do have a little experience in desktop post. Don't get me wrong, I know how to use FCP and piece things together. But that's a far cry from being an editor. The same as anyone can pick up a a camera and get a picture. But that's nowhere near being a cinematographer! Anyway, glad you enjoyed the article. There will be some still frames and and a QT version posted in the articles section soon. Oh and Keith, in film we call it timing... __________________ Jon Fordham Director of Photography www.jonfordham.com

January 23rd, 2006, 06:31 PM	#2
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	I haven't tried this, so experiment yourself. If you shoot B&W in-cam, there are lots of filters made for B&W photography that become viable. Just look at B&H in the filters section for filters for black and white photography. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...arch&Q=&ci=113 Also, I'm sure that the reduction in color data can't hurt in the compression. The only downside is that you can't go back to color if you change your mind.

January 23rd, 2006, 07:16 PM	#3
Evan C. King Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 532	Doesn't the FX1/Z1 have a way of pulling certain colours out? That's something cool you could look into doing depending on your type of project.

January 23rd, 2006, 07:28 PM	#4
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,801	Yes, the "color correct" function can isolate either one or two specific colors within a black and white image. The same function can be used to "revise" two colors also, and although it hasn't received a lot of attention it seems to be a potentially powerful tool. With the limited colorspace in HDV, there may be some advantage to making basic adjustments in color before recording to tape.

January 24th, 2006, 05:10 PM	#6
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	thanks Keith - so it will help motion artifacting in hdv to shoot incamera b&w?

January 26th, 2006, 05:03 PM	#8
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	thanks Jon . Any other suggestions for working with the footage in post . I use fcp 5. Kurth

January 26th, 2006, 11:43 PM	#10
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	Jon - finally got the time to read your post on shooting the "Hip Hop's Dead ". I thought you said you weren't an editor ! Yes , I've been using Mr. Nattress' filters for over a year but have not tried them in b&w.That will be a good place to start. thanks again for your time. Kurth