How can SONY overtake the Panasonic HVX200

[Hans ter Lingen]

- introducing 1080/25p
- get rid of MPEG2
- introducing 2/3" CCD
- introducing solid state memory cards

Sony will probably stick with the HDV format (unfortunately)

[John Poore]

By introducing HDV Pro on their prosumer camera one might hope. I think it is a sin that Sony hasnt done this already, and with the competition coming up from JVC, Pana and maybe Canon they are going to get stung, and it serves them right.

I like HDV because it fits onto a miniDV tape. Panasonic HVX low-budget (which is most of us) users are going to suffer with over priced P2 cards, not to mention the expensive archiving issues that result from it, and potential big problems by having to transfer via laptop all the time.

I agree about having a bigger chip in an HDV camera, I think 1/3 chips are the weak link in the 1080 HD revolution.

[Boyd Ostroff]

Of course the irony of what you're saying is that Sony doesn't need to "overtake" Panasonic at all; in fact it's the other way around. There's a huge installed base of Sony HDV cameras already, and the HVX is still months away from shipping.

I understand where you're coming from, but I personally doubt that Sony will feel a lot of pressure to compete with the Panasonic for awhile. They already have 4 HDV cameras which appeal to a much broader market segment than either JVC or Panasonic.

[Hans ter Lingen]

Dont understand me wrong I am a big sony fan especially because of the way they built cams and there reputation in this segment. So I can not wait to see the successor of the FX1/Z1 with solid state memory and 2/3' chip (they have to keep up their reputation in "low light"). I can live with HDV as along as they sort out the motion artifacts caused by the MPEG/GOP compression (18:1 !!!).

[John Poore]

Boyd, not to yank your chain of course, but are you replying on behalf of Sony, or is this merely your opinion. I am saying this because Sony could be offering a lot more with its cameras, take at look at what JVC is doing with HDV Pro, and the fact that Panasonic is about to offer twice the quality with DVCPRO HD. HDV is a nice little trick, but I don't think it is neccesarily a pro level product. Just because its the only game in town right now, it is not a guarantee it'll stay that way, you know what this business is like.

I don't mean to speak for all, but I think a lot of people here are gazing lovingly at what Panasonic is about to bravely unleash, yes, unleash!

[Hans ter Lingen]

John, although I am a Sony fan I agree totally with you.

[John McCully]

John Poore, not to yank your chain, but of course you are replying on behalf of Pany, right! And ‘bravely unleash’ speaks more about a big dog than a camera; interesting thought. Let’s hope, for Panasonic’s sake that, bravado has nothing to do with it but rather their decisions are based on sound business thinking.

I'm not a fan of any equipment manufacturer :-)

John McCully

[Eric James]

Sony has no need to worry. Just look at costs. $3,000 for sony HD vs. $10,000 for panny HVX. It doesn't even matter if all these camera blow sony out of the water UNTIL they bring their prices in the same range as the sonys. At that point sony probably still won't lose any sleep/sales because of their market penetration by that point. Sony has no reason to improve their HD cam's for another 5-7 years. They have the high end market, they have the low end market, and for now they have the Mid "prosumer" market as well.

They may lose some of the Mid to these new camera's but not enough to make them want to endanger their high end market with camera's that are to close to the quality of an F-900. So we will see their models only slightly improve over the next 5 years. For an example please look at the history of the vx-2000/pd-150 family.

This is all of coarse just a small part of a company that only sells camcorders to sell tapes. Yup Sony makes it's money selling tapes NOT selling cameras.

Just a side note: I'm the proud owner of an FX-1 and a VX-2000. They were both great purchases. I'm sure I will be purchasing a new camera NOT from sony within the next year or 2, due to the HVX, HD-100 etc.

My 2 c,
Eric James

[Boyd Ostroff]

My only relationship with Sony is that of a customer (and holder of a few shares of their stock). I speak for myself. As great as DVinfo is, I think some people fail to see the bigger world at times. If every aspiring low budget movie maker ran out and bought the Panasonic camera it would be a tiny drop in the bucket when it comes to mass marketed camcorders. It's a niche product - and seems like it will be a great one - but there's a limited audience for a product like that.

Sony is obviously shooting for a much larger segment of the population with its HDV offerings. For example, the local Mom & Pop camera store down the street from me has been advertising the FX-1 in the local "shopper" newpaper (same publication where you read about the lettuce sale at the super market and your neighbor's lost cat). Do you think the HVX-200 will be pitched in this kind of publication?

While we may have hopes and desires for new cheap 2/3" Sony cameras, I'm not at all sure what their motivation would be to introduce one right now with sales of their existing 4 models so strong. Especially with their recent financial troubles, I hope they only bring things to market that will be profitable.

[Hans ter Lingen]

For me only one thing counts when purchasing a new cam : best value for money. Since the HVX200 (without P2 cards) is only about 50 Euro's more expensive than the Sony Z1 for me the choice is easy. besides interlaced scan I get progressive scan, DVCpro formats, no MPEG2-long GOP compression, and a lot of got ergonomic issues. Moreover if P2 card will become cheaper in the very near future I can easily make the change over. The demand for HD is still very limited in the market anyway. So for the brand is no issue.

[Mark Grant]

Since the HVX200 (without P2 cards) is only about 50 Euro's more expensive than the Sony Z1 for me the choice is easy.

So you'd make your choice of camera on 'equal' cost, ignoring the fact that you'll have to pay about the same amount again to buy enough P2 cards to be useful, and you'll have to buy a laptop with a big external drive and a tape backup system and have someone following you around to keep copying the video from the P2 cards to the laptop and tape drive?

Bizarre.

IMHO Sony have absolutely nothing to worry about from the HVX200: the Z1 is the only affordable semi-pro 1080i to tape camera right now, and the disadvantages of recording to P2 cards are massively underrated by the majority of the camera's fans.

[Hans ter Lingen]

Mark,

Please try to read carefully before you make any comments. Furthermore and I quote "....and the disadvantages of recording to P2 cards are massively underrated by the majority of the camera's fans." does not make any sense at all." Probably you ment "overrated". Although my native language is not English and I make grammar mistakes I am able to make my point.

[Eric James]

Hey Hans,
He did mean to say "underrated".

He is saying people don't care enough about the problems of the P2 format.

"overrated" would mean they care to much about the problems of the P2 format.

Rather than attacking him for grammar, you may want to re-read his post. It might help you from making some bad choices when purchasing your next camera.

My 2 c,
Eric James

[Stu Holmes]

Originally Posted by Hans ter Lingen

Mark,

Please try to read carefully before you make any comments. Furthermore and I quote "....and the disadvantages of recording to P2 cards are massively underrated by the majority of the camera's fans." does not make any sense at all." Probably you ment "overrated". Although my native language is not English and I make grammar mistakes I am able to make my point.

Hans

Mark used the correct expression. under-rated is the right word there, not over-rated.
Perhaps a better word to use may have been "under-considered", but his point, and expression of his point, is correct.

My Dutch isn't too great (i'm British) but i would be very reluctant, as a native English speaker, to post on a board and try to tell a native-Dutch speaker that he hasn't used the correct Dutch phrase ! chances are that someone who's been speaking Dutch for 30 years is likely to have a better grasp of it than myself..

IMHO.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Hey guys, for the sake of keeping the thread clean, howzabout letting it sit until Hans can come in and speak for himself, rather than others taking his words to one direction or the other? He's quite capable of communicating on his own. :-)