ATV vibration causing HDV problem?

[Mark Grant]

In the first clip, see it go out of focus, oops, the focus is locked down..

That is odd, though it's not entirely surprising that that kind of vibration could cause problems for the focus mechanism. Are you certain that the focus was locked? I've never seen such problems on my Z1 in normal use.

In the third clip. How many guys are standing there?

Uh, one. Again, you seem to be complaining about... interlace artifacts. The FX1 is an interlaced camera, you will get interlace artifacts if you view it on a computer screen.

[Ken Eberhard]

At some point here I am going to bow out of this thread... I've spent a lot of time here this last week.

Yes, I'm sure the focus was locked down. Absolutely. I bet you will see these problems if you put your camera in contact with a slight vibration. It's not an intlace problem, you could drop one of the fields and it would clean up.. but not with this stuff. It's in both fields. None repairable, none usable... Uh, one man, yes, but how many edges does the man have? I was just trying to add a little humor to the situation. The picture looks so bad I wouldn't put it on my bathroom wall. The posting I put up in QT can be frame advanced. You can download it into your computer by saving to disk in the lower right corner triangle. Take it into FCP and de-interlace it.. You may argue that it has gone through another compression. But it wont clean up in any format. It's all goofy, each and every field. At this point I believe we have duplicated the problem with two Z1's.

Adiós, Ken E

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Ken Eberhard

Yes, the problem is with the Sony's HDV cameras... They seem to have two limitations. One is keying and the other is moving motorized vehicles. No big deal if you know that going in... I'm not that put out by it. I just wish it had been put up front.. Like in small print someplace that says "This camera format may not work well when exposed to minor vibrations." Or "in vibrating places other camera formats may work." That way you can go in with your eyes open to testing. Someone suggested that NASCAR is using them in their cars. I somehow doubt it. .

Ken, I respectfully suggest the problem is with you and your workflow. I/we regularly key the Z1's, in Sony Vegas and in Serious Magic Ultra 2. Daily, I do this. I've also shown it to several hundred people in various classes and HDV presentations. I even have a really bad screen shot with beer stains, seamed background, and dark "blob" on the screen that I key in demos. You'll see some of that in this month's Studio Magazine.

Re; NASCAR; John Cline and his brother produce and shoot for NASCAR as official archivists of events. They are using Z1's in cars as crash cams, etc.
Jody Eldred shot the opening sequences of JAG from a BELL twin blade HELICOPTER with absolutly no stabilizing tools at all. Twin blades are painfully filled with vibration.

I've had my Z1 on the front of a motorcycle that jumped 60 feet in distance, at a height of approx 18 feet. The only problem was the landing, as one would expect.
Today, I spent about 10 mins with my Z1 on the front of my Rubicon at various speeds, just trying to see if it was nearly as bad as you suggest. I'll post pix when I find time to go shoot pix of me sitting on the Rubicon. (500cc, large Honda)

If you don't like HDV, that's fine it's certainly not for everyone. But to to make blanket statements like "can't key with it" etc is a little over the top. If HDV isn't working...then it's probably time to buy a much more expensive camera if you want HD, but then again...you'll find problems with any format on the front of an ATV rig if you don't have an expensive, well suited stabilizing system.

On the other hand, if you want to post an original, UNTOUCHED m2t somewhere, I'd be happy to look at it in a couple different apps. I can manage up to around 100 meg without complaint. I also have an HD-SDI monitor here at the moment to really delve into this.

[edit] after downloading that last DV rez clip...there's a WHOLE lot more to this story than HDV. There is clearly field reversal happening and/or other error that has zip to do with HDV or Sony.[/edit]

[Chris Hurd]

Just as a note for Ken -- in his post above, D.S.E. suggests uploading a native .m2t clip somewhere... I'll be more than happy to host some video for you here at HDV Info Net; just shoot me an email for the FTP access privs.

[Joe Barker]

Thinking outside the box,I too think the ignition system is your problem .The higher the rpm the increasing pulses from the ignition to the sparkplugs.Maybe try some quality suppressors on the system.Its amazing how much interferance an arking or badly suppressed plug lead can cause to electronics.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Joe Barker

Thinking outside the box,I too think the ignition system is your problem .The higher the rpm the increasing pulses from the ignition to the sparkplugs.Maybe try some quality suppressors on the system.Its amazing how much interferance an arking or badly suppressed plug lead can cause to electronics.

Now THERE'S something I hadn't considered whatsoever. Given that my Rubicons are just a couple months old...this wouldn't rear its head on my system, should this at all be the culprit, or one of several potential culprits.

[Mark Grant]

Uh, one man, yes, but how many edges does the man have?

One, after you deinterlace the frame. Though I do see something odd happening around his right arm: color bleed, maybe?

[Ken Eberhard]

I'm sorry I made the statement about the keying problem. I read that information on this forum. You look it up and and join that thread. I had no business making that statement. From what I read, it sounded pretty conclusive. Again, it wasn't for me to say one way or the other. I apologize.

I don't remember who it was, but a few months ago someone on this forum told us he was using his Z1 on a motocross bike doing fifty foot jumps with no problem and he had it attached with suction cups to the gas tank. Is that you? It was that statement that encouraged me to send my FX1 into Sony for repair. Also, what does the rev up cycle of the bike look like?

I'm very confused now... Here's a testimony that seems to say the Sony's HDV cameras don't have the problem in general. I'd love to find that out. For me, that would be the best and most affordable fix I could hope for.

My camera is in the states with my associate who did the shipping back and forth to Sony. I can ask him to post a file. Or if someone on this thread who has validated the problem I am having could make one available. I'll see if I can get one from my source. But he is very busy and I can't guarantee a quick posting and I wont see my camera until someone I know fly's back down here with it, that is if I keep it.

We've also done test on a clothes dryer.. No ignition problem there. We've had the same results. And we have covered this in this thread before. I know it's a long thread. but you can scan back to see if you want. Also, look at the clip Carroll Lam posted. He has his on a car hood, same problems. Different electronics.

I'm going to do a lot less posting on this thread. I've said more than I know to be fact. I can't say anything new. And after all of this. I'm back to square one. Do I buy another HDV or not? I'll stay tuned and if I'm needed I'll step in. But I don't think I can say anything more of much use. And I'll try to get the file for you.

Thanks.. Ken E.

[Ken Eberhard]

Douglas, You say it is clearly field reversal. So what can be done to fix this? I'm sure you don't consider my clips to be "looking good". Can this be repaired? I can't use the camera on my mount and my mount is set up right. The GlideCam is fantastic. And from what your saying, I should get great pictures on my mount. I do with the PD-170. If your camera works, and if John Cline's works, Why is mine and a few other Sony HDV's having such problems. And why does the Sony repair team say, that's the way HDV is, sorry, your using it in a place we can't guarantee good results. I also realize you may not have any knowledge about repairing this camera. But what would you do? Sony will not try to repair this camera again. And it's not a matter of "NOT LIKING HDV" as you said, it's a matter of wanting some footage I can use. Would you use the footage I posted? Did you see my posting of my 170 on the mount? That's the way I would expect my footage to look. I would run out and buy another HDV if I where convinced I would not have the same problem.

PD-170 on the same mount. http://homepage.mac.com/kene3/QuadHeaven.html

I'm working on the m2t clip. I may have it as soon as later today if my associate gets the time to do it.

In the clip where I round the corner and see my friend. When you de-interlace it, each field is a blur. I've de-interlaced many stills of video through the years. When one field is removed, you get a much clearer picture, however degraded by half the resolution. That is not the case here. And yes, we will know more when you see the untouched file.

My main question to you is, would you use the footage I posted? Why do you say, if I don't like HDV then it's not for everyone? That implies you might use the footage. Please clarify.

Ken E.

PS. Chris, can you send me the FTP address to post at please?
kene3@mac.com

[Anhar Miah]

Hello Ken, I don't know if you have tried this software.

This works with HDV (latest version)

I've only glanced at it, i've tried these type of software on miniDV footage and it is amazing, much better than DIS (Digital Image Stabilizer), the reason being that in DIS the hardware has to correct in real-time. With these software you can even have two pass!!

Anyway to cut a long story, I tried this type of software and it made a clip that was done handheld (very shaky) look like it was done on a glidecam.


So try this on one, I my self have not used this one, you will probably have to play around with different settings

http://biphome.spray.se/gunnart/video/deshaker.htm



hope that helps


Anhar Hussain Miah

[Ken Eberhard]

Anhar, thanks for the suggestion, but according to me. Post stabilization can't work. Each field is a blur. Can't fix that... But maybe after we get the UNTOUCHED file posted we will all know more.

Douglas. I've spent some time doing internet searches for John Cline, NASCAR. I can't find anything about this. I've done searches for NASCAR Archives, and other variations on the theme. I cant find anything about this on the net. I would think that an archivist for NASCAR would be easy to find. Can you assist me in locating any information confirming this NASCAR Z1 usage?

Dogma = absolute belief. Catma = relative disbelief: I'd like to confirm this usage and try to find out how they have mounted this cam.

No offense meant... Ken E.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

I don't think John or his brother would be posting footage. John is a personal friend from Albuquerque, NM, a power user of Sony Vegas, and I don't think he'd ever lie about such a thing. Are you suggesting I'm lying about the moto-cross footage that I shot for CMT? Or that I didn't shoot on my ATV on Sunday?
No, I wouldn't use your footage as you posted it.
I can say that since we bought our 3 Z1's, I've not turned on a DV camera in several months. National Geo, CMT, and several projects have all been shot with the Z1. After having just returned from Australia, I saw footage on television from the Z1 and FX1 all over the place. Just on the bay in a boat, I saw a video crew with 3-4 Z1's. They're around. They're being used. HDV is quite popular.
And there will be people who don't like HDV just like there are those that don't like fast food.

Without an original m2t, I'm not really able to comment. Deinterlacing and field order are not really relevant, although you likely want to deinterlace, given what you're trying to do.

[Ken Eberhard]

Douglas, I never intended to say you were lying. I would love to see the footage you shot with your ATV. As of yet, I have not. I can only say that I don't trust anyone, not even god, more than I trust my own experience. I need to confirm that a Sony HDV camera can work when exposed to minor vibration. I understand your qualifications as a professional, I've looked you up on the net. I am trying to show respect, and express my doubt. That is a difficult paradox. And if you don't like my footage, and according to me the mount is great. As demonstrated by my 170 on the mount. What do I do? Do I go out and buy another HDV on your word? Also, am I wrong to say that if I end up de-interlacing the HDV footage to make it palatable, aren't I losing resolution, and at what point does the HDV begin to shine when half the resolution is removed? Sony is finished trying to repair my camera. I have read that you have close ties to Sony, true or not, I don't know. But if you do, it might behoove Sony to give my camera a little more attention, or replacement. This thread can't be what they want to see. I don't want to be here either. I was at a point of conclusion about my camera having limitations until you posted your activities with a Z1. I am evidently not the only one having these problems. See Carroll Lam's posting. So for us who use the camera that way and are having problems, we would like to find out what the true facts are. Is it the format, or my individual camera with a problem? And if it's my camera only. Why doesn't Sony stand behind it? It appears to me they may have taken the easy way out by quoting some paragraph on page 95 in the owners manual about not guaranteeing the camera under unusual conditions, like exposed to vibrations, or submerged in water. I am willing to accept that Sony is done with my camera too. I am willing to go buy another HDV, but as of yet, I don't feel confident about the format. Post your results and I might not have to believe you or anyone. I can see for my self. A belief is a pretense to know. I need to know via my own experience. Show me please. And even then, what are my odds of getting another problem? What percentage of the Sony's have this problem? That question does not negate the need for someone who has had success with the camera exposed to minor vibrations to post their results. We need to know if it is possible to get good video under such conditions.


I love the format too, I understand why so many are in use already. It's a fantastic break through. That has nothing to do with a possible limitation when exposed to minor vibrations. But if it has limitations, that needs to be known as well. Right now, according to me and my experience, there is reasonable doubt.

Can your friend John Cline make a clip available, and can he explain how he has the camera mounted?

With respect.. Ken E.

[Anhar Miah]

If you could measure that frequency, you could build a damping system to compensate (with the correct calculated damping ratio, dont ask me now its been a while since I've done those calculations:).


Anhar Hussain Miah

P.S as soon as you get the original UNTOUCHED m2t files pass it through that software I recommended, and get back to me on that.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

I suggest you drive to Albuquerque or Phoenix where John does most of their work.
My motorcycle footage was on the VASST site for several weeks; there is other footage there now, albeit shot from the platform on a pickup truck bed(that was idling).
Looking at your footage, it's clear you've got some editing issues happening. I've offered to look at the m2t file, but you've not posted it.
Without that, all I can go on is what you've displayed in the mp4 file. The issues seen in that file aren't related to vibration at all. They're editing/workflow problems. But, I'm not going to attack your editing knowledge the way you've attacked the camera and/or format, which happens to be used for production and broadcast by groups as diverse as MTV and PBS, National Geographic, Discovery Channel, ABC, CBS, and many, many others. Perhaps we're all just idiots out there making great footage, revenue, and doing what we do. (create/produce/deliver)

It's not my job to convince you of anything. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. It's probably time to move on/move up. 4:2:2 cams are all over the place. Maybe they'll work for you. Frustrated or not, the suggestion that anyone is "making any of this up" is offensive. That said, this thread is pretty bloated and I don't know that I've got anything further to add to it.