question about FX1/Z1 mode at DVinfo.net

Jim Rog · August 10th, 2005, 04:25 PM

Hello all

Is there much differents between CineFrame 25 on the FX1E and the 24P on the Z1? How much different does the picture look from these cameras? Does anyone have a link so I can download some 24P footage shot with Z1? is 24P the same as CF30?

Thanks for any help

Barry Green · August 10th, 2005, 04:47 PM

Yes, there's a night-and-day difference. CF25 looks like actual progressive-scan 25fps. CF24 looks awful; it has an uneven cadence and variable resolution between frames that make for shimmery artifacts even on stationary objects.

There is no such thing as 24P on the Sony cameras. There's a cheap convoluted video effect called CineFrame 24, but it is not 24p. There's no 25p either, but CineFrame 25 works very well to simulate 25p progressive scan. The same cannot be said for CineFrame 24.

Jim Rog · August 10th, 2005, 04:58 PM

Hello

Thank you for your help

I see a lot of people talking about CF30 but not sure what this is I thought CF30 was the same as 24P but looks like I got things mixed up here. So what is CF30? and what is the picture like compare to CF25?

Thanks for any input.

Boyd Ostroff · August 10th, 2005, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim rog

Is there much differents between CineFrame 25 on the FX1E and the 24P on the Z1?

Just to clarify: the Z1 can shoot both PAL and NTSC, so you have your choice of 60i, 50i, 30f and 25f...

Barry Green · August 10th, 2005, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim rog

I see a lot of people talking about CF30 but not sure what this is I thought CF30 was the same as 24P but looks like I got things mixed up here. So what is CF30? and what is the picture like compare to CF25?

CF25 and CF30 use the exact same technique. CF25 is one field of 50i video; CF30 is one field of 60i video. So in terms of overall resolution and presentation, they are identical. The difference is in motion rendition -- CF25 shows 25 frames per second, CF30 shows 30 frames per second. CF25 is more filmlike, CF30 is smoother.

CF25 and CF30 are both present on the Z1. On the FX1 they're mutually exclusive -- you get one but not the other. If you buy a European FX1, you get CF25 but not CF30. If you buy an American FX1 you get CF30 but not CF25.

None of them are the equivalent of 24p, which is true progressive-scan video at full resolution. CF25 and CF30 both offer a bit over half the resolution, since they're one de-interlaced field. But they do match the motion signature of progressive-scan very well.

Jim Rog · August 11th, 2005, 04:31 AM

Thank you for all the info there very helpful

Thanks

Jim Rog · August 11th, 2005, 10:47 AM

Sorry just another quick question

So if you take away the XLR inputs and the NTSC from the Z1 is it still worth the upgrade from the FX1E? Can the Z1 give more of a film look then the FX1E?

Thanks for any input

Barry Green · August 11th, 2005, 11:56 AM

The Z1 has many upgrades beyond just the XLR's -- but basic image processing is the same. The Z1 adds another level of CinemaTone gamma, but the lens and the chips and the DSP and all that are identical between the two cameras. The Z1 lets you monitor/control audio channels individually, it's 50i and 60i, CF25 and CF30, PAL & NTSC, DVCAM mode, all sorts of nice things.

If I was buying a Z1 or FX1, there's no doubt at all that I'd get the Z1, in a heartbeat. But the FX1 is substantially less expensive and the basic imaging hardware is the same.

Jim Rog · August 11th, 2005, 12:29 PM

Thank you for your reply barry

So is the Z1 going to give me more of a film look over the FX1E? from your point of view is it worth upgradeing to the Z1 just for the CF30 alone? i keep hearing people saying that it gives much more of a film look over the FX1E but how true is this?

Thanks

Boyd Ostroff · August 11th, 2005, 12:43 PM

Jim, with all due respect I think you're a little hung up on the filmlook aspect when comparing the FX1 and Z1 :-) I agree with Barry's take on this. But maybe you're a little confused about CF30 and CF24. Since you mention FX1E I assume you're in a PAL country? (side note: it helps us help you if you click on the controls link above and specify your city/country of origin in your profile) The PAL FX1 has CF25 the NTSC model has CF24 and CF30. As Barry suggested, you will probably be closer to "film look" with the PAL FX1E and CF25 than the faux CF24 on the NTSC FX1U.

I chose the Z1 for a lot of reasons; there are a bunch of small upgrades. The main reason for choosing it however was the dual PAL/NTSC compatibility. I needed to do a PAL project and didn't want to invest in a PAL only camera. The FX1 is certainly a much better deal in terms of bang for the buck.

See the chart which Chris put online comparing the FX1 and Z1:

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/sonyhdrfx1/compare.php

One other thing if you're really hung up on "film look" and are willing to work in SD PAL (720x576). The Z1 will give you real 25/576p progressive output from its component video jack. Unfortunately it can't do this over firewire, so if you wanted to utilize this format you'd need some sort of capture card. AFAIK this is an option not available on the FX1E.

Jim Rog · August 11th, 2005, 03:39 PM

But how close is CF30 to the film look?

Boyd Ostroff · August 11th, 2005, 04:16 PM

see this thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=49101

I think you'll be closer with 25p on either the Z1 or FX1E.

August 10th, 2005, 04:25 PM	#1
Jim Rog Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: PAL Zone Posts: 188	question about FX1/Z1 mode Hello all Is there much differents between CineFrame 25 on the FX1E and the 24P on the Z1? How much different does the picture look from these cameras? Does anyone have a link so I can download some 24P footage shot with Z1? is 24P the same as CF30? Thanks for any help

August 10th, 2005, 04:47 PM	#2
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Yes, there's a night-and-day difference. CF25 looks like actual progressive-scan 25fps. CF24 looks awful; it has an uneven cadence and variable resolution between frames that make for shimmery artifacts even on stationary objects. There is no such thing as 24P on the Sony cameras. There's a cheap convoluted video effect called CineFrame 24, but it is not 24p. There's no 25p either, but CineFrame 25 works very well to simulate 25p progressive scan. The same cannot be said for CineFrame 24.

August 10th, 2005, 04:58 PM	#3
Jim Rog Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: PAL Zone Posts: 188	Hello Thank you for your help I see a lot of people talking about CF30 but not sure what this is I thought CF30 was the same as 24P but looks like I got things mixed up here. So what is CF30? and what is the picture like compare to CF25? Thanks for any input.

August 11th, 2005, 04:31 AM	#6
Jim Rog Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: PAL Zone Posts: 188	Thank you for all the info there very helpful Thanks

August 11th, 2005, 10:47 AM	#7
Jim Rog Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: PAL Zone Posts: 188	Sorry just another quick question So if you take away the XLR inputs and the NTSC from the Z1 is it still worth the upgrade from the FX1E? Can the Z1 give more of a film look then the FX1E? Thanks for any input

August 11th, 2005, 11:56 AM	#8
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	The Z1 has many upgrades beyond just the XLR's -- but basic image processing is the same. The Z1 adds another level of CinemaTone gamma, but the lens and the chips and the DSP and all that are identical between the two cameras. The Z1 lets you monitor/control audio channels individually, it's 50i and 60i, CF25 and CF30, PAL & NTSC, DVCAM mode, all sorts of nice things. If I was buying a Z1 or FX1, there's no doubt at all that I'd get the Z1, in a heartbeat. But the FX1 is substantially less expensive and the basic imaging hardware is the same.

August 11th, 2005, 12:29 PM	#9
Jim Rog Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: PAL Zone Posts: 188	Thank you for your reply barry So is the Z1 going to give me more of a film look over the FX1E? from your point of view is it worth upgradeing to the Z1 just for the CF30 alone? i keep hearing people saying that it gives much more of a film look over the FX1E but how true is this? Thanks

August 11th, 2005, 12:43 PM	#10
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	Jim, with all due respect I think you're a little hung up on the filmlook aspect when comparing the FX1 and Z1 :-) I agree with Barry's take on this. But maybe you're a little confused about CF30 and CF24. Since you mention FX1E I assume you're in a PAL country? (side note: it helps us help you if you click on the controls link above and specify your city/country of origin in your profile) The PAL FX1 has CF25 the NTSC model has CF24 and CF30. As Barry suggested, you will probably be closer to "film look" with the PAL FX1E and CF25 than the faux CF24 on the NTSC FX1U. I chose the Z1 for a lot of reasons; there are a bunch of small upgrades. The main reason for choosing it however was the dual PAL/NTSC compatibility. I needed to do a PAL project and didn't want to invest in a PAL only camera. The FX1 is certainly a much better deal in terms of bang for the buck. See the chart which Chris put online comparing the FX1 and Z1: http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/sonyhdrfx1/compare.php One other thing if you're really hung up on "film look" and are willing to work in SD PAL (720x576). The Z1 will give you real 25/576p progressive output from its component video jack. Unfortunately it can't do this over firewire, so if you wanted to utilize this format you'd need some sort of capture card. AFAIK this is an option not available on the FX1E.

August 11th, 2005, 03:39 PM	#11
Jim Rog Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: PAL Zone Posts: 188	But how close is CF30 to the film look?

August 11th, 2005, 04:16 PM	#12
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	see this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=49101 I think you'll be closer with 25p on either the Z1 or FX1E.