I Hate When People Refer to the New Panasonic & JVC HD Cams as the Z1 Killer!!!

[James Darren]

as the title says...

am I the only one who gets annoyed at this?

have been reading a few different forums & internet sites lately (mostly this one though!), gathering info, pros & cons of each camera to see which one will suit me best & fit into my budget (have people forgot you have to pay these cameras off with some type of video work??)

And its seems more & more often you read posts & reviews stating the new Panasonic & JVC HD cams are the "Z1 killer" or "the JVC/Pana blows away any Z1" or "Z1 owners are going to be sorry they dont wait for the new HD cams to come out"....

Its rediculous really. Like many people have said before me, each camera has its use. FX1 is cheap at US$3300, Z1 for more features, Pal/Ntsc fatures, XLR Audio for US$4900 is still great. The new Pana HD will prob be aboutUS$7000-$10000 with 24p will be great & The JVC with a real manual lens & shoulder mount will be great too.... Each has its pupose, targeted market & price range it fits into....

By the way, the reason I made this post is a customer came into the camera store I work for last week & said "Have you got any Canon 20D cameras in stock, I want to trade you in my Canon 1D cos I read on the net somewhere that the 20D blows it away.." (Again these 2 cameras are in different market groups, one is a pro camera & one is a consumer camera, both good though)I shock my head & after 10 mins of explanation to him he kept his Canon 1D & bought a new Pro lens instead..... which was the smart thing to do....

The next person who starts a "Camera Killer" thread or "My Apple blows away your Orange" thread will be hunted down & their cat will have nasty things done upon it... :)

My rant for the day...

[Jimmy McKenzie]

At a JVC reseller event I attended last week, the rep was able to hint a little further about the impending 100u release. He was almost giddy when he floated the idea that the new cam would be priced in the Z1 range. Obviously their single chip prosumer hdv cams have suffered under the presence of the Sonys.

So that said and as a tabby tribute, I will avoid the use of killer analogies. But if the pricing prognosticator is precise, just imagine the impact that would have...

[Chris Hurd]

James, you've touched upon one of the unfortunate anomalies of internet message boards -- the tendency to compare two items which really aren't in the same class. These folks usually get hung up on superlatives, as in "most" this or "better" that... while ignorting the bigger picture of where these products fall in terms of price category, format and so on. Ultimately they're just tools, and I wish some of our members here would remember that. For what it's worth, when the FX1 / Z1 first came out, it was referred to as "the XL2 killer," so this is a trend which continues in cycles, and will no doubt happen every time some new camcorder is introduced. It's happened before, and will happen again, sadly.

[James Darren]

Firstly Jimmy, again these are ifs, maybes, whens or will it happen.... and when this cam does come out, do you seriously believe Sony won't have a new model too? JVC might have a "Z1 Killer" but will it be a 'Z2 Killer"? Probably not...

I'm sure you come across many of these topics Chris... How do you stay so sane?? haha....

[Luis Caffesse]

While I agree with the general sentiment, it doesn't seem that these comparissons are completely out of line in this case.

Jan has said that the new Panasonic camera is their answer to the Sony Z1, and the JVC is the first 3 chip HDV camera made by a manufacturer other than Sony.

While the pricing is still a question, you can't really blame people for comparing them....

now, if and when they are announced, if the pricing is far above the cost of a Z1, then I would agree that the comparisson doesn't really hold.

But, until then, I can see how the natural reaction would be to compare these cameras to the Z1.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

I think we've kinda gone past embracing our tools for just being good tools, and turned them into an extension of our id. And if your id is a Z1, you'll feel threatened if someone else' id is an HDX100, or an XL3HD, or whatever else might come down the road. If your id is fragile, it's easy to be hurt by someone else' presence if their id is perceived to be stronger.

1. They're just tools; we run the tools.
2. The tools don't matter worth a damn if they're the best and we're ignorant of how to use them.
3. They're just tools. Dominate your tools.
4. Breathe deep and realize that the grass is always greener....somewhere.

I'm a big fan of the Z1. Maybe the JVC or Panny will offer better images. But I've got a Z1 or two, and I know what I can do with it, and can use it well. It's my axe of choice. If a sharper axe comes along, I'll look at it very seriously, all the while using my current axe. Maybe I'll add a new tool, maybe not. But if I do add one, you can bet my current tool will be constantly used as well, because it's a tool I know well.

Killer this, killer that? It's just too much testosterone speaking in old men that don't wanna take Viagra. :-)

[Gareth Watkins]

Hi
I agree entirely with DSE... they are only tools!!!

I made a very similar point in the
Hype/excitment Z1/FX1 over !!

thread this week..

Regards

Gareth

[Luis Caffesse]

"If a sharper axe comes along, I'll look at it very seriously, all the while using my current axe."

I agree completely, as I think we all do, with DSE's points.

However, while the hype may be overwhelming at times, I think that comparing cameras (tools) is still a necessary evil for those who are considering either upgrading, or making their first major purchase.

Granted, this time of year (only weeks away from NAB) it gets out of hand. But, for someone like me it's not so easy to simply say 'yeah, it's a tool like any other' while I"m considering spending up to $10,000 by the end of the year on new gear.

I haven't bought a camera in years, having been borrowing and renting over the past 4 years for the most part. Most of my money has been spent on post gear, and I"m finally getting to the point that I think I can justify the purchase of a new camera.

That said, when spending the money there are many things to consider, and you wind up disecting every feature on every camera out there.

Granted, there is still no room for hype, and hype isn't going to help anyone make an informed buying decision.

All I'm saying is that is seems much simpler to brush the comparissions off as unimportant when you've already chosen your "axe," and are too busy chopping wood to be bothered with a new one.

The trick is to keep level headed, and try to keep hype out of the equation.

You are right, they are just tools. But, for many of us, they are very expensive tools which we rely on to make our living.... and so the decision of which 'axe' to buy isn't always a quick and easy one.

[Boyd Ostroff]

Personally I hope the new cameras are as cool and as popular as the hype promises. That should cause Sony to react with a price drop shortly after NAB and make for a nice Z1 buying opportunity :-)

I think the "killer" moniker has been beaten to death way past the point of cliche. How many "iPod killers" have I read about during the past two years? That's what Sony called their disastrous Network Walkman.

I think Spot really nailed it: "I think we've kinda gone past embracing our tools for just being good tools, and turned them into an extension of our id." And that reminds me of one of my favorite movies, Forbidden Planet where "Monsters from the id" destroyed an entire technologically advanced society.

[Luis Caffesse]

""Monsters from the id" destroyed an entire technologically advanced society."

Woah, gives a whole new meaning to the 'killer' moniker, doesn't it?

:)

[James Darren]

<<<-- Originally posted by Boyd Ostroff : Personally I hope the new cameras are as cool and as popular as the hype promises. That should cause Sony to react with a price drop shortly after NAB and make for a nice Z1 buying opportunity :-)-->>>

thats what I hope for too.... If it got in the low $4000 after the announcement or release that'd be great as I think the Z1 is more than good enough for my usage...

[Steven Gotz]

I own a Sony HDR-FX1. I bought it to take to Hawaii last December and I have also taken it to Acapulco. And I have used it for other little projects as well. There was no better camera, for me, available for purchase in the same price range at the time I bought it.

I would be terribly disappointed if a new camera never came out that made mine something other than the best available in the price range.

While it will be a while before I buy a new camera, I would like to see a new camera be presented at NAB that makes me wish I owned it. Because then a while later, some other camera will come out to beat that one, and another and another, and then eventually they will be so good I will go out and buy one.

Let them all "kill" the one before. Let the manufacturers beat each other up on features and price and maybe one day I will spend the same amount on a new state-of-the-art camera that I did for my FX1 but get a lot more for the money.

We all like to have the best, but eventually something better comes along. So what? It would be sad if that never happened, wouldn't it?

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

I would never take issue with comparing cameras or anything else. When looking at a woman to spend time with, I constantly compare to my ex-wife. (Will this woman stab me or shoot me? Will she steal everything I've worked hard for? Will she recognize that I'm a good person even though I wear the shirt she hates enough to wipe the toilet with?)

But...comparisons are based on opinions for the most part. Electronically, it could be argued that the Z1 is inferior to say...most any high end 2/3 DV camcorder. But our eyes tell us it's not. My point being, comparisions made should be gauged by the position and experience of the person doing the gauging. As an example, I think anyone listening to just me talking about Vegas when it comes to NLE's, is a fool. I'm fairly open minded, and broadly experienced. I've written books on Adobe, Apple, Ulead, and Sony NLE's. But I prefer Vegas. I'd never trust only Barry Green's words on camcorders, because he has an obvious bias. I'd never, ever, ever trust Chris Hurds word on horses, because he only likes good looking mares.
So, look to WHO is making the comment, as that's a pretty telling point. Is the person saying this cam is KILLER someone you know? Maybe he's a schill for the company who makes it? Maybe he's inexperienced in camcorders and was impressed with the first pretty picture he saw? Or maybe he's truly unbiased, but that would be rare.
I love the Z1, but I've also written a lot of words about it's weaknesses. I'm sure I'll love what comes next from JVC, but it too will have weaknesses. Anytime we're talking about sub 50k cams right now...there will be weaknesses. You just gotta know how to sharpen your axe.

[Luis Caffesse]

"I would like to see a new camera be presented at NAB that makes me wish I owned it. Because then a while later, some other camera will come out to beat that one, and another and another, and then eventually they will be so good I will go out and buy one."


I couldn't agree more....
that's actually where I am right now, and it's a good place to be.


DSE - I think we're on the same page.

And, I think we can all agree that the term "Killer" has no place in a serious and lucid camera comparison.

That term alone would make someone suspect to me.

[Heath McKnight]

I'm a little guilty of this, because when I first heard about the HD-100 last November, then un-named, and posted it up here. The "FX1/Z1 killer" title was to grab people's interest, something from my news days.

But, to be honest, the 1 chip JVC cameras kinda hurt themselves because of their one chip, etc.

heath