Wanna big surprise?

Douglas Spotted Eagle · March 14th, 2005, 05:27 PM

My earlier post on the other forum has been deleted, the owner of the site didn't care for me posting there. I'm sure some of you have experienced the same thing.

Christopher C. Murphy · March 14th, 2005, 05:30 PM

Peter,

The answer to your question is actually everywhere on this forum. This thread here really isn't about the merit of 24 frames...we're just trying to figure out if it's possible. It seems like it might be and we're all interested in it.

Do a search for 24p via the HDV and SD forums...you'll get 100 posts about 24p. The why's and how's....we're onto the how's right here!

Christopher C. Murphy · March 14th, 2005, 05:32 PM

Douglas,

I've got so many funny things I can say about those "forums". But, I've promised Chris Hurd I'd keep my mouth shut......damn, why did I promise that!! I've been counting the people who've had problems over there and the number keeps climbing..

Peter Rixner · March 14th, 2005, 05:38 PM

Christopher,

The answer to your answer is, that I didnt want to disturb your thread. Iam aware of the meaning of a progressive format. I just thought, I am missing something new about it, that makes you all so enthusiastic.

I guess its already answered of its possibility by the starting post.

Sorry if its disturbing.

Greetings

Peter :)

Douglas Spotted Eagle · March 14th, 2005, 05:39 PM

My stories can top your stories...:-) Just ask Chris.

I'm really thrilled with the way this is working, and even though Sony won't "officially" comment, one of their employees just emailed me a few minutes ago saying...."We suspected this, and we're verifying your tests, but so far it looks very good..." how's that for saying nothing? ;-)

Peter Rixner · March 14th, 2005, 05:43 PM

One more thing ...

How can you know, that its progressive ? When cineframe25 throws away one field, why shouldn't the 24 ?

Are you seeing it from the quality compared to a deinterlaced version or something. Maybe again I did miss something :)

Barry Green · March 14th, 2005, 06:06 PM

I'm curious as to what you're seeing as well.

I've shot CF24 on an FX1 in DV mode, side-by-side with the DVX in 24P, and the results weren't the same at all. Examining CF24 frames with pulldown makes it look like it should be telecine'd 24p footage, but it doesn't act like it.

I shot a lockdown shot, both cameras side-by-side, with a car passing in front, so the car was a constant-speed object. On the DVX, it moved approximately the same number of pixels on every frame, as you'd expect. But on the FX1/CF24, it moved about 1/3 of its total motion on one frame, then 2/3 on the next. In other words, over the course of two frames the car would move just as much as it would on two frames on the DVX, but instead of being evenly spaced, it was very uneven. The result was a distracting herky-jerky stuttery motion, not 24p-like.

And the results don't change whether you view them on a 60i timeline, or on a 24p timeline (importing the CF24 footage in Vegas, and using File Format Properties to remove 2-3 pulldown).

Are you saying you've discovered something else? Or that the Z1 works in a different way or something?

Douglas Spotted Eagle · March 14th, 2005, 06:20 PM

I'm moving the files from one system over to another where I can see these on a projector, then I'll be able to identify the markers that are leading me to a conclusion that I'm not willing to stake anything on.
I'll post them after I get them moved across the network.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · March 14th, 2005, 08:03 PM

Sorry guys, false excitement. I was testing a 4:2:2 stream from the uncompressed analog out, and found some exciting stuff, but at the end of the day, it was just me jumping the gun. It looks a lot better than the HDV version on an LCD monitor, not sure why just yet, but it was enough to get me excited.
I've put up images on the Sundance site,
http://www.sundancemediagroup.com/tr...24_cadence.htm
Apologies for me getting so excited. Between our new product, seeing a smoother/prettier cadence in DVCam mode, and general enthusiasm for a great day....I screwed up. Sorry.
It still looks MUCH better than HDV, but it's not the sweet look of the DVXcams.

Christopher C. Murphy · March 14th, 2005, 08:16 PM

Waaahhhhh.....(crying like a baby)...

It's the effort that counts. But, what's the deal with Sony's email??

Douglas Spotted Eagle · March 14th, 2005, 08:55 PM

Sony apparently knows something I don't. I've got a phone conf tomorrow with the product manager, because there is a definite difference in the way the hdv vs DVCam version of this same setup behaves. you can see in the images that the ruler clocks the distance of the pendulum, and it's a different behavior. Plus it looks a lot smoother even though on a frame by frame basis it's basically the same thing.
There is another workflow that gives very sweet 24p, but I'm not at liberty to mention it until NAB. Sorry!

Christopher C. Murphy · March 14th, 2005, 10:12 PM

Hey, no fair.....

Shannon Rawls · March 15th, 2005, 12:38 AM

i promised a few companies.
so, i ain't sayin' sh*t!

*smile*

go cf24!

Christopher C. Murphy · March 15th, 2005, 06:46 AM

I'm sensing a conspiracy!!!

lol

Bob Zimmerman · March 15th, 2005, 08:56 AM

Why does anything have to be keep quiet?

March 14th, 2005, 05:27 PM	#16
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	My earlier post on the other forum has been deleted, the owner of the site didn't care for me posting there. I'm sure some of you have experienced the same thing. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

March 14th, 2005, 05:30 PM	#17
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Peter, The answer to your question is actually everywhere on this forum. This thread here really isn't about the merit of 24 frames...we're just trying to figure out if it's possible. It seems like it might be and we're all interested in it. Do a search for 24p via the HDV and SD forums...you'll get 100 posts about 24p. The why's and how's....we're onto the how's right here! __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

March 14th, 2005, 05:32 PM	#18
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Douglas, I've got so many funny things I can say about those "forums". But, I've promised Chris Hurd I'd keep my mouth shut......damn, why did I promise that!! I've been counting the people who've had problems over there and the number keeps climbing.. __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

March 14th, 2005, 05:39 PM	#20
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	My stories can top your stories...:-) Just ask Chris. I'm really thrilled with the way this is working, and even though Sony won't "officially" comment, one of their employees just emailed me a few minutes ago saying...."We suspected this, and we're verifying your tests, but so far it looks very good..." how's that for saying nothing? ;-) __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

March 14th, 2005, 06:20 PM	#23
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	I'm moving the files from one system over to another where I can see these on a projector, then I'll be able to identify the markers that are leading me to a conclusion that I'm not willing to stake anything on. I'll post them after I get them moved across the network. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

March 14th, 2005, 05:38 PM	#19
Peter Rixner Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: near Munich, Bavaria Posts: 139	Christopher, The answer to your answer is, that I didnt want to disturb your thread. Iam aware of the meaning of a progressive format. I just thought, I am missing something new about it, that makes you all so enthusiastic. I guess its already answered of its possibility by the starting post. Sorry if its disturbing. Greetings Peter :)

March 14th, 2005, 05:43 PM	#21
Peter Rixner Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: near Munich, Bavaria Posts: 139	One more thing ... How can you know, that its progressive ? When cineframe25 throws away one field, why shouldn't the 24 ? Are you seeing it from the quality compared to a deinterlaced version or something. Maybe again I did miss something :)

March 14th, 2005, 06:06 PM	#22
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	I'm curious as to what you're seeing as well. I've shot CF24 on an FX1 in DV mode, side-by-side with the DVX in 24P, and the results weren't the same at all. Examining CF24 frames with pulldown makes it look like it should be telecine'd 24p footage, but it doesn't act like it. I shot a lockdown shot, both cameras side-by-side, with a car passing in front, so the car was a constant-speed object. On the DVX, it moved approximately the same number of pixels on every frame, as you'd expect. But on the FX1/CF24, it moved about 1/3 of its total motion on one frame, then 2/3 on the next. In other words, over the course of two frames the car would move just as much as it would on two frames on the DVX, but instead of being evenly spaced, it was very uneven. The result was a distracting herky-jerky stuttery motion, not 24p-like. And the results don't change whether you view them on a 60i timeline, or on a 24p timeline (importing the CF24 footage in Vegas, and using File Format Properties to remove 2-3 pulldown). Are you saying you've discovered something else? Or that the Z1 works in a different way or something?

March 14th, 2005, 08:03 PM	#24
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Sorry guys, false excitement. I was testing a 4:2:2 stream from the uncompressed analog out, and found some exciting stuff, but at the end of the day, it was just me jumping the gun. It looks a lot better than the HDV version on an LCD monitor, not sure why just yet, but it was enough to get me excited. I've put up images on the Sundance site, http://www.sundancemediagroup.com/tr...24_cadence.htm Apologies for me getting so excited. Between our new product, seeing a smoother/prettier cadence in DVCam mode, and general enthusiasm for a great day....I screwed up. Sorry. It still looks MUCH better than HDV, but it's not the sweet look of the DVXcams. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

March 14th, 2005, 08:16 PM	#25
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Waaahhhhh.....(crying like a baby)... It's the effort that counts. But, what's the deal with Sony's email?? __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

March 14th, 2005, 08:55 PM	#26
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Sony apparently knows something I don't. I've got a phone conf tomorrow with the product manager, because there is a definite difference in the way the hdv vs DVCam version of this same setup behaves. you can see in the images that the ruler clocks the distance of the pendulum, and it's a different behavior. Plus it looks a lot smoother even though on a frame by frame basis it's basically the same thing. There is another workflow that gives very sweet 24p, but I'm not at liberty to mention it until NAB. Sorry! __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

March 14th, 2005, 10:12 PM	#27
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Hey, no fair..... __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

March 15th, 2005, 12:38 AM	#28
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	i promised a few companies. so, i ain't sayin' sht! smile* go cf24!

March 15th, 2005, 06:46 AM	#29
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	I'm sensing a conspiracy!!! lol __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

March 15th, 2005, 08:56 AM	#30
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	Why does anything have to be keep quiet?