Two low-light frame grabs...

Steve Crisdale · January 4th, 2005, 12:54 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Spot, those are beautiful shots. The Z1 definitely has stronger contrast. The difference with the 750 picture is huge.

Here's an idea: let's see if we can't set some time at CES to shoot something and come to some sort of conclusion. Is Chris going to be there? Let's take your Z1, Chris' XL2, and my DVX and set up a shot where we can A/B/C them on a monitor, and use the image controls in each camera to their best ability to see how close we can come to making each shot look like each other. (judging color, or "warmth", or even sharpness, is very difficult on these cameras because they offer so much variety). Once we eliminate those as variables, let's see how each compares in delivering any particular look, on DVD. That way each camera will be handled by its respective biggest advocate, should provide for an interesting shot. -->>>

Now there's a challenge - as well as a true test - if ever I saw one!!!!

I'm reminded of the Florentines setting Michelangelo and Da Vinci up against each other on opposite walls of the City's town hall.....

Chris Hurd · January 4th, 2005, 12:58 AM

Great idea, Barry! I should have easy access to an XL2 while in Vegas this week. We should convene in the lounge at the Pepper Mill, first round is on me.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · January 4th, 2005, 01:00 AM

That's a thought. I don't know if Chris will be at CES or not.
My only issue is, I'm not a booth rat, I'm a trainer for 7 hrs a day.
If you guys can come to me...we should be able to shoot some charts and lil' action figures.

Chris Hurd · January 4th, 2005, 02:06 AM

Yup, I'm there but I'm in the same boat as Spot. I'm not working at the trade show but I'm tied up with CES-related stuff every day. This would definitely have to be an evening thing. Barry, do you have three sets of sticks and heads? I can snag a cam but not the sticks.

Barry Green · January 4th, 2005, 02:28 AM

I can probably find three tripods... you guys think you can filch a monitor with a/b/c inputs? The monitor I've got can a/b, or we could hook one up through component, one through composite and one through s-video, but that's pretty lame... it'd be really nice to a/b/c them all using the same type of connection, on the same monitor.

I'm working on a corporate video both weekend days... don't know hours yet, but I should be able to do something on Monday...

Chris Hurd · January 4th, 2005, 07:36 AM

Ouch. I'm there only from tonight thru Sunday.

Barry Green · January 4th, 2005, 12:59 PM

I looked up the dates, and I think CES runs Thursday through Sunday. I was thinking it was Saturday thru Tuesday (but that must be NAB or Comdex or one of those others).

So, maybe Friday night?

Chris Hurd · January 4th, 2005, 01:11 PM

So far it looks like I'm open Friday night... Spot?

Steve Crisdale · January 4th, 2005, 03:54 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : So far it looks like I'm open Friday night... Spot? -->>>

Yes Douglas..... I was despairing of you guys being able to pull this off given some of the posts above.....

You're almost there!! Do you guys realize what a crowd puller you'd have if you were able to announce such a comparison?

Maybe that's why it's not been done like this before..... the big players don't like seeing crowds around something really meaningful to the market, rather than the manufacturer.

Steven Gotz · January 4th, 2005, 05:10 PM

As I am perhaps the prototypical Prosumer - a very technical consumer with professional tendencies ( made over $10K last year in video related gigs - enough to buy some cool toys ) - I feel it appropriate to weigh in on some of these issues from a Prosumer viewpoint. Douglas is a well respected pro, and Barry I don't know. Sounds like he might be a pro.

I almost totally agree with Barry.

If you are going to produce SD, then buy the best SD camcorder you can buy.

If you are going to invite people to see your work on a HDTV, then by all means, buy the FX1 (I did).

If you can't decide, but want to feel future proofed, then buy the FX1. But it is a gamble. My guess is we will see better, and cheaper, HDV camcorders before we see a way to distribute the material to the masses.

That said, many people have Media Center PCs attached to their HDTVs. I would rather just burn a DVD-ROM and use the AVel Linkplayer2 that I have ordered. It is limited to 720 instead of 1080, but I'll live. But for many people, a $1000 PC in the living room supporting their $4000 television is not unreasonable.

Want to charge more for shooting an HDV wedding? Go ahead. Just supply the DVD player ($249) and charge an extra $500. You can easily export to a SD 16:9 DVD for their relatives.

That's why I said I "almost" totally agree. I believe that HD is viable in the upper end market. And those are the people who want HD anyway.

What I certainly know for sure, is that shopping for a 60" television with FX1 in hand was a real hoot. The sales people fell all over themselves to be helpful. First because they wanted to see the results. Second, because a guy with a $3500 camcorder is probably a "real" customer, and not wasting their time.

By the way, I ended up with a Sony 60" that looked so much better than anything else, there was no comparison. Except perhaps one of the Toshiba sets. Which was slightly more expensive. It gets delivered tomorrow, and the DVD player on Friday. Should be a cool weekend now that I can edit in Premiere Pro with Aspect HD.

Davi Dortas · January 4th, 2005, 05:43 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steven Gotz : By the way, I ended up with a Sony 60" that looked so much better than anything else, there was no comparison. Except perhaps one of the Toshiba sets. -->>>

Can you say the model of Sony? Is it LCoS. I heard new +HD3 chips from TI will make HDTV LCD possible with 1080i resolution. I will look to buy DLP LCD with +HD3 chip from TI for my HDTV very soon in new year.

Cheers.

Steven Gotz · January 4th, 2005, 05:47 PM

I ended up with the KDF-60WF655 - a truly fine LCD. To get 1080i the price was over double, and the difference, to my eyes, was not sufficient to justify the expense.

And I will usually be playing HD over a DVD-ROM that is limited to 720.

Joel Corral · January 4th, 2005, 11:06 PM

excuse me if i may, but i am shooting with my FX1 and down converting on the fly to 4X3 letterbox (Using HDV>DV Setting) and it looks very good. as good if not better than my GL2. so i guess i got rocks in my head. and yes i am putting it on DVD as well and no complaints from the boss.

But however when i did do down conversion in my timeline in premiere pro 1.5 i noticed a considerable amount of quality loss, in fact there is no comparison between on the fly and rendering in my timeline.

Are you people Down converting on the fly at all?

joel

Steven Gotz · January 4th, 2005, 11:22 PM

Joel,

I never considered using HDV downconverted by Premiere Pro. Are you using Aspect HD and then importing the AVI into Premiere Pro in a SD project?

I thought about using the footage in a smaller project to act as a zoom, but to use the Motion effect to shrink it never crossed my mind.

I am willing to bet that the camcorder will downconvert better than Premiere Pro could ever do.

Barry Green · January 4th, 2005, 11:57 PM

I think that's probably true as well. The camcorder downconversion is really pretty good. Premiere is not known for the quality of its downrezzing.

The highest quality that Spot and I have gotten from it is to downconvert in Vegas, using "best" quality settings. It preserves a little more detail than the in-camera downconversion, and if you're going to DVD it lets you avoid an intermediary DV compression step and its corresponding color resolution loss. But the in-camera firewire downconversion is not bad at all, it looks really quite good.

January 4th, 2005, 12:58 AM	#17
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Great idea, Barry! I should have easy access to an XL2 while in Vegas this week. We should convene in the lounge at the Pepper Mill, first round is on me. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 4th, 2005, 01:00 AM	#18
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	That's a thought. I don't know if Chris will be at CES or not. My only issue is, I'm not a booth rat, I'm a trainer for 7 hrs a day. If you guys can come to me...we should be able to shoot some charts and lil' action figures. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

January 4th, 2005, 02:06 AM	#19
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Yup, I'm there but I'm in the same boat as Spot. I'm not working at the trade show but I'm tied up with CES-related stuff every day. This would definitely have to be an evening thing. Barry, do you have three sets of sticks and heads? I can snag a cam but not the sticks. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 4th, 2005, 07:36 AM	#21
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Ouch. I'm there only from tonight thru Sunday. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 4th, 2005, 01:11 PM	#23
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	So far it looks like I'm open Friday night... Spot? __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 4th, 2005, 12:54 AM	#16
Steve Crisdale Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Katoomba NSW Australia Posts: 635	<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Spot, those are beautiful shots. The Z1 definitely has stronger contrast. The difference with the 750 picture is huge. Here's an idea: let's see if we can't set some time at CES to shoot something and come to some sort of conclusion. Is Chris going to be there? Let's take your Z1, Chris' XL2, and my DVX and set up a shot where we can A/B/C them on a monitor, and use the image controls in each camera to their best ability to see how close we can come to making each shot look like each other. (judging color, or "warmth", or even sharpness, is very difficult on these cameras because they offer so much variety). Once we eliminate those as variables, let's see how each compares in delivering any particular look, on DVD. That way each camera will be handled by its respective biggest advocate, should provide for an interesting shot. -->>> Now there's a challenge - as well as a true test - if ever I saw one!!!! I'm reminded of the Florentines setting Michelangelo and Da Vinci up against each other on opposite walls of the City's town hall.....

January 4th, 2005, 02:28 AM	#20
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	I can probably find three tripods... you guys think you can filch a monitor with a/b/c inputs? The monitor I've got can a/b, or we could hook one up through component, one through composite and one through s-video, but that's pretty lame... it'd be really nice to a/b/c them all using the same type of connection, on the same monitor. I'm working on a corporate video both weekend days... don't know hours yet, but I should be able to do something on Monday...

January 4th, 2005, 12:59 PM	#22
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	I looked up the dates, and I think CES runs Thursday through Sunday. I was thinking it was Saturday thru Tuesday (but that must be NAB or Comdex or one of those others). So, maybe Friday night?

January 4th, 2005, 03:54 PM	#24
Steve Crisdale Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Katoomba NSW Australia Posts: 635	<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : So far it looks like I'm open Friday night... Spot? -->>> Yes Douglas..... I was despairing of you guys being able to pull this off given some of the posts above..... You're almost there!! Do you guys realize what a crowd puller you'd have if you were able to announce such a comparison? Maybe that's why it's not been done like this before..... the big players don't like seeing crowds around something really meaningful to the market, rather than the manufacturer.

January 4th, 2005, 05:10 PM	#25
Steven Gotz Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Clermont, FL Posts: 1,520	As I am perhaps the prototypical Prosumer - a very technical consumer with professional tendencies ( made over $10K last year in video related gigs - enough to buy some cool toys ) - I feel it appropriate to weigh in on some of these issues from a Prosumer viewpoint. Douglas is a well respected pro, and Barry I don't know. Sounds like he might be a pro. I almost totally agree with Barry. If you are going to produce SD, then buy the best SD camcorder you can buy. If you are going to invite people to see your work on a HDTV, then by all means, buy the FX1 (I did). If you can't decide, but want to feel future proofed, then buy the FX1. But it is a gamble. My guess is we will see better, and cheaper, HDV camcorders before we see a way to distribute the material to the masses. That said, many people have Media Center PCs attached to their HDTVs. I would rather just burn a DVD-ROM and use the AVel Linkplayer2 that I have ordered. It is limited to 720 instead of 1080, but I'll live. But for many people, a $1000 PC in the living room supporting their $4000 television is not unreasonable. Want to charge more for shooting an HDV wedding? Go ahead. Just supply the DVD player ($249) and charge an extra $500. You can easily export to a SD 16:9 DVD for their relatives. That's why I said I "almost" totally agree. I believe that HD is viable in the upper end market. And those are the people who want HD anyway. What I certainly know for sure, is that shopping for a 60" television with FX1 in hand was a real hoot. The sales people fell all over themselves to be helpful. First because they wanted to see the results. Second, because a guy with a $3500 camcorder is probably a "real" customer, and not wasting their time. By the way, I ended up with a Sony 60" that looked so much better than anything else, there was no comparison. Except perhaps one of the Toshiba sets. Which was slightly more expensive. It gets delivered tomorrow, and the DVD player on Friday. Should be a cool weekend now that I can edit in Premiere Pro with Aspect HD.

January 4th, 2005, 05:43 PM	#26
Davi Dortas Membership Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 78	<<<-- Originally posted by Steven Gotz : By the way, I ended up with a Sony 60" that looked so much better than anything else, there was no comparison. Except perhaps one of the Toshiba sets. -->>> Can you say the model of Sony? Is it LCoS. I heard new +HD3 chips from TI will make HDTV LCD possible with 1080i resolution. I will look to buy DLP LCD with +HD3 chip from TI for my HDTV very soon in new year. Cheers.

January 4th, 2005, 05:47 PM	#27
Steven Gotz Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Clermont, FL Posts: 1,520	I ended up with the KDF-60WF655 - a truly fine LCD. To get 1080i the price was over double, and the difference, to my eyes, was not sufficient to justify the expense. And I will usually be playing HD over a DVD-ROM that is limited to 720.

January 4th, 2005, 11:06 PM	#28
Joel Corral Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brea, CA Posts: 356	excuse me if i may, but i am shooting with my FX1 and down converting on the fly to 4X3 letterbox (Using HDV>DV Setting) and it looks very good. as good if not better than my GL2. so i guess i got rocks in my head. and yes i am putting it on DVD as well and no complaints from the boss. But however when i did do down conversion in my timeline in premiere pro 1.5 i noticed a considerable amount of quality loss, in fact there is no comparison between on the fly and rendering in my timeline. Are you people Down converting on the fly at all? joel

January 4th, 2005, 11:22 PM	#29
Steven Gotz Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Clermont, FL Posts: 1,520	Joel, I never considered using HDV downconverted by Premiere Pro. Are you using Aspect HD and then importing the AVI into Premiere Pro in a SD project? I thought about using the footage in a smaller project to act as a zoom, but to use the Motion effect to shrink it never crossed my mind. I am willing to bet that the camcorder will downconvert better than Premiere Pro could ever do.

January 4th, 2005, 11:57 PM	#30
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	I think that's probably true as well. The camcorder downconversion is really pretty good. Premiere is not known for the quality of its downrezzing. The highest quality that Spot and I have gotten from it is to downconvert in Vegas, using "best" quality settings. It preserves a little more detail than the in-camera downconversion, and if you're going to DVD it lets you avoid an intermediary DV compression step and its corresponding color resolution loss. But the in-camera firewire downconversion is not bad at all, it looks really quite good.