HVR-Z1 and 24P

Heath McKnight · December 8th, 2004, 08:15 AM

Sony doesn't want 24p because it may actually interfere with sales of their larger cameras, or so they fear?? That's a theory...

heath

Walter Graff · December 8th, 2004, 08:22 AM

Two notes:

Perhaps Sony doesn't want to pay the licensing fees for 24p to my friend Rob Farber who owns the patent.

As for specs, who ever thought that 24p was part of a formats spec. It doesn't have to be to be included in a design. It's a add-on to a spec. Remember that 24p isn't in the SD spec either but that hasn't stopped Canon and Panasonic. 24p is less a spec and more an add-on. If it wasn't for introducing 24p to professional HD cameras two years after they were introduced to the world we would have not HD today. The 24p gimmick is what sold the camera .

Dennis Adams · December 8th, 2004, 09:45 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Mark Kubat : I know FCP has 25>24p "filter" - what's the best way to do this on the PC side in say Vegas? -->>>

1. Put 25p footage on timeline.
2. Bring up Event Properties.
3. Set "Playback rate" to "0.959" (-4% / 1.001)
4. Set "Disable Resample"
5. Hit "OK". Trim event out to new length.

You (or someone) could write a Vegas script that does this to selected events. In that case, set the rate to 24/25*1000/1001.

///d@
Sony Media Software

Carlos E. Martinez · December 8th, 2004, 10:02 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Walter Graff :
Perhaps Sony doesn't want to pay the licensing fees for 24p to my friend Rob Farber who owns the patent.
-->>>

It's a joke , right?

How can anyone own a patent to 24p? That's a norm, not a product.

Probably the ridiculous, if it wasn't serious, ways of the US patent office. Thank goodness piracy is taking over!

Carlos

Walter Graff · December 8th, 2004, 10:49 AM

Rob Farber holds a patent for the use of 24p technology in cameras. Not in software on the computer, but any camera that creates 24p is subject to his patent. He just signed a big deal with Panasonic licencing them the use of 24p, already has Sony and Thompson.

Gary McClurg · December 8th, 2004, 10:53 AM

So Walter, then if these guys making these homemade cameras use 24p then they owe him a fee?

Dylan Pank · December 8th, 2004, 11:09 AM

<<<--

As for specs, who ever thought that 24p was part of a formats spec. It doesn't have to be to be included in a design. It's a add-on to a spec. Remember that 24p isn't in the SD spec either but that hasn't stopped Canon and Panasonic. 24p is less a spec and more an add-on. If it wasn't for introducing 24p to professional HD cameras two years after they were introduced to the world we would have not HD today. The 24p gimmick is what sold the camera . -->>>

There is NO "TRUE TRUE 24p" DV, only 25 or 29.97. There is a pulldown in any 24p DV camera (iether 2323 or 2332) to allow an NLE to create a 24p timeline out of DV encoded MOVs or AVIs, but all DV cameras record either 25 or 29.97 to tape, even i they are scanning at 24fps at the CCD.

remember - 3fps isn't in the SD spec either but you can get it simply lowering the shutter speed on most cameras!

I would consider the XL2 and the DXV100 "Half TRUE 24P" (as is the Varicam but in a sense there is no disadvantage compared to TRUE TRUE 24P if you see what I mean). A "TRUE TRUE 24p" Cam would be the HDW900F. which scans AND records 24p (or 23.976, near as damnit).

It seems the CF24 in the FX1 AND the Z1U just drops out one frame in six for CF24 and then inserts a 2:3 pulldown, hence the jerkiness of motion. Quite were the overall shiveriness of the image comes from isn't yet as clear, it could be that the GOP structure is passing on artefacts from the pull down frame into preceeding and following frames. Therefore, even if Sony introduced 48Hz CCDs and a 2:3:3:2 cadence a la the DXV100, there would still be some issues because one frame in 5 (that's 3 frames in every GOP) would have sudden interlace artefacts, unlike the preceeding 2 and following 2 frames.

Heath McKnight · December 8th, 2004, 11:13 AM

We're getting way off topic here. Let's go back to the Z1 and 24p.

heath

December 8th, 2004, 08:15 AM	#31
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Sony doesn't want 24p because it may actually interfere with sales of their larger cameras, or so they fear?? That's a theory... heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

December 8th, 2004, 09:45 AM	#33
Dennis Adams Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 123	Re: why so hard to do 24 Hz on FX1? <<<-- Originally posted by Mark Kubat : I know FCP has 25>24p "filter" - what's the best way to do this on the PC side in say Vegas? -->>> 1. Put 25p footage on timeline. 2. Bring up Event Properties. 3. Set "Playback rate" to "0.959" (-4% / 1.001) 4. Set "Disable Resample" 5. Hit "OK". Trim event out to new length. You (or someone) could write a Vegas script that does this to selected events. In that case, set the rate to 24/25*1000/1001. ///d@ Sony Media Software

December 8th, 2004, 11:09 AM	#37
Dylan Pank Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Portsmouth, UK Posts: 611	24p and HDV <<<-- As for specs, who ever thought that 24p was part of a formats spec. It doesn't have to be to be included in a design. It's a add-on to a spec. Remember that 24p isn't in the SD spec either but that hasn't stopped Canon and Panasonic. 24p is less a spec and more an add-on. If it wasn't for introducing 24p to professional HD cameras two years after they were introduced to the world we would have not HD today. The 24p gimmick is what sold the camera . -->>> There is NO "TRUE TRUE 24p" DV, only 25 or 29.97. There is a pulldown in any 24p DV camera (iether 2323 or 2332) to allow an NLE to create a 24p timeline out of DV encoded MOVs or AVIs, but all DV cameras record either 25 or 29.97 to tape, even i they are scanning at 24fps at the CCD. remember - 3fps isn't in the SD spec either but you can get it simply lowering the shutter speed on most cameras! I would consider the XL2 and the DXV100 "Half TRUE 24P" (as is the Varicam but in a sense there is no disadvantage compared to TRUE TRUE 24P if you see what I mean). A "TRUE TRUE 24p" Cam would be the HDW900F. which scans AND records 24p (or 23.976, near as damnit). It seems the CF24 in the FX1 AND the Z1U just drops out one frame in six for CF24 and then inserts a 2:3 pulldown, hence the jerkiness of motion. Quite were the overall shiveriness of the image comes from isn't yet as clear, it could be that the GOP structure is passing on artefacts from the pull down frame into preceeding and following frames. Therefore, even if Sony introduced 48Hz CCDs and a 2:3:3:2 cadence a la the DXV100, there would still be some issues because one frame in 5 (that's 3 frames in every GOP) would have sudden interlace artefacts, unlike the preceeding 2 and following 2 frames.

December 8th, 2004, 11:13 AM	#38
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	We're getting way off topic here. Let's go back to the Z1 and 24p. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

December 8th, 2004, 08:22 AM	#32
Walter Graff Hellgate Pictures, Inc. Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New York, NY Posts: 124	Two notes: Perhaps Sony doesn't want to pay the licensing fees for 24p to my friend Rob Farber who owns the patent. As for specs, who ever thought that 24p was part of a formats spec. It doesn't have to be to be included in a design. It's a add-on to a spec. Remember that 24p isn't in the SD spec either but that hasn't stopped Canon and Panasonic. 24p is less a spec and more an add-on. If it wasn't for introducing 24p to professional HD cameras two years after they were introduced to the world we would have not HD today. The 24p gimmick is what sold the camera .

December 8th, 2004, 10:02 AM	#34
Carlos E. Martinez Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil Posts: 1,138	<<<-- Originally posted by Walter Graff : Perhaps Sony doesn't want to pay the licensing fees for 24p to my friend Rob Farber who owns the patent. -->>> It's a joke , right? How can anyone own a patent to 24p? That's a norm, not a product. Probably the ridiculous, if it wasn't serious, ways of the US patent office. Thank goodness piracy is taking over! Carlos

December 8th, 2004, 10:49 AM	#35
Walter Graff Hellgate Pictures, Inc. Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New York, NY Posts: 124	Rob Farber holds a patent for the use of 24p technology in cameras. Not in software on the computer, but any camera that creates 24p is subject to his patent. He just signed a big deal with Panasonic licencing them the use of 24p, already has Sony and Thompson.

December 8th, 2004, 10:53 AM	#36
Gary McClurg Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Springfield, MO, USA Posts: 389	So Walter, then if these guys making these homemade cameras use 24p then they owe him a fee?