HVR-Z1 and 24P

[Walter Graff]

Let's make it clear before the rumors fly. Both cameras make the exact same picture based on the Sony white paper on their format that I saw discussed by Sony recently. The pro model has Realtime HD in and out as opposed to 2 sec delay, 2 cine gammas compared to one, smooth zoom, Auto focus assistant, A black and white /color switchable monitor, safety marks, drop and non drop time code compared to only drop, hyper-gain, rec and free run time code compared to only record run, and a few other features but the camera records exactly the same as the $1000 cheaper model.

[Ronald Lee]

Also about "Would the best situation be true 24P, which canon and panasonic has..."

Neither Canon nor Panasonic are TRUE 24p. That's easy to tell because they shoot 30i. The 3:2 pulldown is down in camera.

The way Panasonic does it, makes it ideal for film transfers. Not sure about the XL2 (someone here wil probably know).

But about about the Sony? Will this different method still allow good film transfers, or is shooting in 60i still the best?

[Graeme Nattress]

But both the DVX and XL2 are true 24p. The fact that 3:2 is added is irrellevant. The fact that the shutter is 1/48th and 24 progressive frames are read from the CCD is not. They are not 30i (I think you really mean 60i though, and they're not that either in 24p mode). The FX1 is 60i in 24p mode and it does a very poor conversion to 24p.

Graeme

[Ronald Lee]

"But both the DVX and XL2 are true 24p."

that's not what my Pana rep says.

We are talking TRUE 24p here, not making it come out to 24p.

[Graeme Nattress]

I think you'll find that the 24p from the DVX not only look slike 24p but is 24p. What makes you think it isn't??

Graeme

[Walter Graff]

i think they are confusing 23.976 24p video with 29.97 30 frame video.

[Kevin Dooley]

<<<-- Originally posted by Ronald Ng : "But both the DVX and XL2 are true 24p."

that's not what my Pana rep says.

We are talking TRUE 24p here, not making it come out to 24p. -->>>

It is true 24p, the whole thing with the reverse pulldown on the XL2 and DVX is so that it can be written to the tape at 60i to fit within the DV spec...the CCD's actually run at 24 progressive frames/second and the shutter can be set to 1/48th... Any decent NLE when importing this footage can remove the pulldown and leave you with the perfect (or not so perfect depending on your skill level) 24 progressive frames that the camera originally "recorded" when it was running...

[Zack Birlew]

When it is all said and done, the best course for filmlook using DV or HDV is going to be in post. There are quite a few software solutions that are becoming or are currently available that allow for this. Unless you want to get a Varicam or some other $50,000+ HD camera or move over to film, then software's the only solution. I think the FX-1 looks great no matter what you're shooting and it's color response is superb, shoot in 60i or 1/30 (looks a lot like the Frame mode on my GL1). Also, everyone should AVOID the Cineframe 24 mode, it's not fluid, it's stuttery as heck. If you really need 24p mode in the camera then go for whatever camera is proven to provide fluid 24p such as the DVX or XL2, both are good enough for blowing up to film, minding that you compensate for DV's issues for film transfer, and then you're set. But for these HDV cameras, it's software all the way (which is probably an easier process since you can edit, color correct, and fiddle with the footage at the same time as conversion). Well that's about it. Hope I've been helpful and accurate! ^_^

[Ronald Lee]

"the CCD's actually run at 24 progressive frames/second and the shutter can be set to 48Hz"

Tha'ts what I asked my Pana rep...I guess he was wrong, then he gave an opposing answer that the CCDs don't run at 24p.

Hopefully, I'll hear from my film transfer house about the FX1/Z1U/ and the XL2 by next week.

[Barry Green]

The Panasonic and the XL2 CCD's do run at 24Hz.

The Sony FX1 runs at only 60hz (or 50hz for european countries) and the Z1 can operate at either 50hz or 60hz.

[Mark Kubat]

This is a good discussion and begs further the question - why the hell didn't Sony do 24p on the FX1?

I know it's not part of the spec but nor was 24p in orig. DV spec and then Pana came along...

I remember when JVC GRHD-1 first came out, there was some talk about how it was hard to get 3-ccd HDV at the time... indubitably, Sony might now try to defend their position that true 24 is not readily possible with HDV...?

At least the PAL looks like a winner.

I know FCP has 25>24p "filter" - what's the best way to do this on the PC side in say Vegas? Is there a script somewhere or what should we do in our NLE to get the best result?

I guess I could search the forum here - but what else are good friends here for?

thanks!

[Heath McKnight]

I believe HDV wasn't originally developed for 24p, thought JVC will have a 24p version out in 2005.

heath

[Barry Green]

24P is not part of the HDV format... (and like you've said, it wasn't part of the DV format either, which didn't stop Panasonic from doing it anyway, and JVC's said they'll do it in HDV anyway).

Sony stated at the camera's introduction that now you have a choice, a clear choice: either 24P, or HD. But as far as they're concerned, not both.

JVC, Panasonic and Canon will almost certainly disagree with them... JVC's already announced, Panasonic is curiously silent (which could be seen as a good thing, meaning they have something fun up their sleeves) and Canon... well, Canon likes to be last to the party, but they sure did a pretty good job with 24P on the XL2, so I expect they'll not abandon it for their HDV offerings.

If you want 24P, HDV's not where it's at right now. If you want HD without 24P, the FX1 is here today. If you want both, together, you'll probably want to get a product from one of the other manufacturers, who will all probably do it.

[Chris Hurd]

Hey Barry,

<< Chris Hurd assures us that there is no difference in that regard, so no, the Z1 would be no better... But, until there's a final finished product on store shelves, anything could happen... I sincerely hope that the CF24 mode is somehow improved on the Z1. >>

Probably best to say now that the assurance relates more to the fact that Sony won't discuss the CF24 algorithm... and I too sincerely hope it's somehow improved on the Z1. They *did* say that there's no difference in CF24 between the Z1 and FX1, but perhaps something else is afoot there to create a difference in its implementation, and they're not talking about it. No denials, no confirmations either.

[Barry Green]

Intriguing. The mystery continues!