Dropouts and tape... at DVinfo.net

Curtis Rhoads · November 22nd, 2004, 01:42 PM

Over on another forum there's been mention of people shooting with an FX1 experiencing dropouts. They've been attributing it to the camera in HDV mode, but it sounds more like a tape issue to me. So I was just curious what those of you with an FX1 are using in your pride and joy and if you've experienced any of these "dropouts"?

Thanks!

Chris Hurd · November 22nd, 2004, 02:07 PM

I would imagine it's a tape issue. Sony recommends their DVM-63HD cassette and I think it would be a mistake not to go that route.

Tape is the single least expensive component in the production chain. Therefore, why bother with anything other than the best quality tape you can find. Affordability should not be an issue here.

Barry Green · November 22nd, 2004, 02:48 PM

Dropouts in HDV are potentially far more disastrous than they are in DV.

In DV, every frame is compressed as a complete and distinct unit, not relying on anything else. So if you get a one-frame dropout on DV, you'll get one glitched frame (which can frequently be reasonably repaired in post).

But in HDV, which uses a group of pictures between 6 and (I believe) 15 frames, a one-frame dropout has the potential to affect all frames after it until the next I-frame. With HDV, each frame is built from the prior frame, within each group (group of six for 720P, group of 15 for 1080i). So a change to one frame will affect all the subsequent frames in the group, and may affect frames prior, if the dropout affects a bidirectional frame. So what would otherwise be a minimal event (a one-frame dropout) could end up scragging up to 15 frames!

For this reason, I believe with HDV you should use the very highest quality tape you can possibly get, and I would heartily recommend using a dropout-proof recording system such as the FireStore (Firestore has announced plans to support recording HDV) or DV Rack (assuming they update it to support HDV).

Alex Pappas · November 22nd, 2004, 09:39 PM

I agree with the others comments above. But I would add this:

Dropout can happen on any format and any tape stock. The best policy is, as was mentioned before, to use the best possible tape stock you can find. Why settle for less?

But, I would also add that the mini-dv tape format is essentially the same no matter what packaging the tape may have. Using a good name brand Mini-DV tape will, I believe, 999 times out of 1000 give you everything that the awesome name brand tape (that costs $4 dollars more) will provide.

So don't go crazy. All Mini-DV tape stock is essentially the same.

But, if you spot a tape stock that looks sketch... Its worth to spend the extra little bit on something you can trust.

Give me another week or so with the camera and I'll tell you if any dropouts have occured. But quite honestly, I don't think there's much of an issue with that problem.

Hope it helps,

-alex

Dustin Cross · November 23rd, 2004, 12:21 AM

I have only used Panasonic MQ tapes in my two FX1's and I have seen a few tape hits. Using brand new Panasonic MQ tape I think I have seen about one tape hit per 60 minute tape, after recording about 10 tapes in the cameras.

I did make the mistake of re-using a Panasonic MQ tape that had orginally been recorded in DV25 and it had tons of tape hits, 30-40 at least. I was just playing around and would never do such a thing for a real shoot. But it is something to know.

That 15 frame GOP can be painful. Most of my tape hits have been about a half second long!

As far as I know Panasonic MQ is one of the best miniDV tapes made.

Shealan Forshaw · November 23rd, 2004, 04:42 AM

I make sure to only use Sony tape in my Sony camera. I have very few issues with dropout, and when I buy the Z1 I will continue to do that. Sony recommend their new extra high quality tape for the FX1/Z1, and for a few extra bucks, im sure its worth it.

Chris Hurd · November 23rd, 2004, 07:43 AM

I must agree with Shealan -- the Sony DVM-63HD is the tape of choice for their HDV cameras. To quote the press release for the DVM-63HD:

"Designed in conjunction with the new camcorder and VTR is Sony's recommended professional media for HDV applications, DigitalMaster™ videotape. These 63-minute cassettes use Sony's AME II Technology and its unique dual-active magnetic layers. By improving on an already successful product, the new AME II manufacturing process employs Hyper Evaticle IV magnetic grains, improved lubricants, and a refined Diamond-Like Carbon (DLC) layer. DigitalMaster exhibits greater packing density of magnetic grains, higher retentivity, higher output and lower noise. The result is a more robust tape with fewer dropouts and errors."

See also Sony's Technical Fact Sheet for the DVM-53HD Cassette.

Kevin Dooley · November 23rd, 2004, 09:28 AM

Okay, I know that tape is the cheapest link in the production process and whatnot...but I heard somewhere that MSRP on this tape is going to be around $18 (US). Is this correct? If so that's a pretty big difference from the $3-$4 I'm usually paying now...

Chris Hurd · November 23rd, 2004, 09:41 AM

Everything is relative. Look at it this way: $18 is a heck of a lot less to pay, compared to $50 for an HDCAM cassette.

You know those nationwide Capital One spots, "What's in Your Wallet?" I'd like to paraphrase that to "What Are Your Images Worth?"

George Ellis · November 23rd, 2004, 11:23 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Dooley : Okay, I know that tape is the cheapest link in the production process and whatnot...but I heard somewhere that MSRP on this tape is going to be around $18 (US). Is this correct? If so that's a pretty big difference from the $3-$4 I'm usually paying now... -->>>
$13.99 for 10 or more from our sponsor B&H Photo Video. :D

Shealan Forshaw · November 23rd, 2004, 11:45 AM

Nice plug :)

Carl Merritt · November 24th, 2004, 09:45 AM

IMHO, $18 (USD) for 60-minutes of relatively worry-free recording is nothing.
I like the idea of using a Firestore drive for 100% certainty.
(Unless, of course, the HDD dies.)

Chris Hurd · November 24th, 2004, 10:11 AM

I agree. Tape costs are chicken feed. $18 is pocket change for high definition video. Roll tape and the FireStore, and you've got a very reliable system with some built-in redundancy.

Alex Pappas · November 24th, 2004, 10:41 AM

I agree with the above... Spend the money properly.

But to be honest, I've never heard of the FireStore..
Yet another product I'm going to have to look into.

-alex

Dustin Cross · November 24th, 2004, 11:58 AM

I agree that getting the best tape is worth the money, but I have never found a Sony miniDV tape that was as reliable as Panasonic MQ, or any other miniDV tape that was as reliable as the Panasonic MQ. I have had much better experience with $7 Panasonic MQ tapes than I have with $20 Sony DVCAM tapes. So I wouldn't rely on these new tapes until we know it works better.

November 22nd, 2004, 01:42 PM	#1
Curtis Rhoads Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orem, UT Posts: 76	Dropouts and tape... Over on another forum there's been mention of people shooting with an FX1 experiencing dropouts. They've been attributing it to the camera in HDV mode, but it sounds more like a tape issue to me. So I was just curious what those of you with an FX1 are using in your pride and joy and if you've experienced any of these "dropouts"? Thanks!

November 22nd, 2004, 02:07 PM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	I would imagine it's a tape issue. Sony recommends their DVM-63HD cassette and I think it would be a mistake not to go that route. Tape is the single least expensive component in the production chain. Therefore, why bother with anything other than the best quality tape you can find. Affordability should not be an issue here. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 22nd, 2004, 09:39 PM	#4
Alex Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Orleans, Ontario, Canada Posts: 36	I agree with the others comments above. But I would add this: Dropout can happen on any format and any tape stock. The best policy is, as was mentioned before, to use the best possible tape stock you can find. Why settle for less? But, I would also add that the mini-dv tape format is essentially the same no matter what packaging the tape may have. Using a good name brand Mini-DV tape will, I believe, 999 times out of 1000 give you everything that the awesome name brand tape (that costs $4 dollars more) will provide. So don't go crazy. All Mini-DV tape stock is essentially the same. But, if you spot a tape stock that looks sketch... Its worth to spend the extra little bit on something you can trust. Give me another week or so with the camera and I'll tell you if any dropouts have occured. But quite honestly, I don't think there's much of an issue with that problem. Hope it helps, -alex __________________ --------------------------- Alexander Papaps Senior Producer JumpPoint Entertainment www.jumppoint.org

November 23rd, 2004, 12:21 AM	#5
Dustin Cross Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 133	I have only used Panasonic MQ tapes in my two FX1's and I have seen a few tape hits. Using brand new Panasonic MQ tape I think I have seen about one tape hit per 60 minute tape, after recording about 10 tapes in the cameras. I did make the mistake of re-using a Panasonic MQ tape that had orginally been recorded in DV25 and it had tons of tape hits, 30-40 at least. I was just playing around and would never do such a thing for a real shoot. But it is something to know. That 15 frame GOP can be painful. Most of my tape hits have been about a half second long! As far as I know Panasonic MQ is one of the best miniDV tapes made. __________________ Mahalo, Dusty

November 23rd, 2004, 07:43 AM	#7
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	I must agree with Shealan -- the Sony DVM-63HD is the tape of choice for their HDV cameras. To quote the press release for the DVM-63HD: "Designed in conjunction with the new camcorder and VTR is Sony's recommended professional media for HDV applications, DigitalMaster™ videotape. These 63-minute cassettes use Sony's AME II Technology and its unique dual-active magnetic layers. By improving on an already successful product, the new AME II manufacturing process employs Hyper Evaticle IV magnetic grains, improved lubricants, and a refined Diamond-Like Carbon (DLC) layer. DigitalMaster exhibits greater packing density of magnetic grains, higher retentivity, higher output and lower noise. The result is a more robust tape with fewer dropouts and errors." See also Sony's Technical Fact Sheet for the DVM-53HD Cassette. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 22nd, 2004, 02:48 PM	#3
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Dropouts in HDV are potentially far more disastrous than they are in DV. In DV, every frame is compressed as a complete and distinct unit, not relying on anything else. So if you get a one-frame dropout on DV, you'll get one glitched frame (which can frequently be reasonably repaired in post). But in HDV, which uses a group of pictures between 6 and (I believe) 15 frames, a one-frame dropout has the potential to affect all frames after it until the next I-frame. With HDV, each frame is built from the prior frame, within each group (group of six for 720P, group of 15 for 1080i). So a change to one frame will affect all the subsequent frames in the group, and may affect frames prior, if the dropout affects a bidirectional frame. So what would otherwise be a minimal event (a one-frame dropout) could end up scragging up to 15 frames! For this reason, I believe with HDV you should use the very highest quality tape you can possibly get, and I would heartily recommend using a dropout-proof recording system such as the FireStore (Firestore has announced plans to support recording HDV) or DV Rack (assuming they update it to support HDV).

November 23rd, 2004, 04:42 AM	#6
Shealan Forshaw New Boot Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 21	I make sure to only use Sony tape in my Sony camera. I have very few issues with dropout, and when I buy the Z1 I will continue to do that. Sony recommend their new extra high quality tape for the FX1/Z1, and for a few extra bucks, im sure its worth it.

November 23rd, 2004, 09:28 AM	#8
Kevin Dooley Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 414	Okay, I know that tape is the cheapest link in the production process and whatnot...but I heard somewhere that MSRP on this tape is going to be around $18 (US). Is this correct? If so that's a pretty big difference from the $3-$4 I'm usually paying now...

November 23rd, 2004, 09:41 AM	#9
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Everything is relative. Look at it this way: $18 is a heck of a lot less to pay, compared to $50 for an HDCAM cassette. You know those nationwide Capital One spots, "What's in Your Wallet?" I'd like to paraphrase that to "What Are Your Images Worth?" __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 23rd, 2004, 11:23 AM	#10
George Ellis Trustee Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Suwanee, GA Posts: 1,241	<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Dooley : Okay, I know that tape is the cheapest link in the production process and whatnot...but I heard somewhere that MSRP on this tape is going to be around $18 (US). Is this correct? If so that's a pretty big difference from the $3-$4 I'm usually paying now... -->>> $13.99 for 10 or more from our sponsor B&H Photo Video. :D

November 23rd, 2004, 11:45 AM	#11
Shealan Forshaw New Boot Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 21	Nice plug :)

November 24th, 2004, 09:45 AM	#12
Carl Merritt Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 60	IMHO, $18 (USD) for 60-minutes of relatively worry-free recording is nothing. I like the idea of using a Firestore drive for 100% certainty. (Unless, of course, the HDD dies.)

November 24th, 2004, 10:11 AM	#13
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	I agree. Tape costs are chicken feed. $18 is pocket change for high definition video. Roll tape and the FireStore, and you've got a very reliable system with some built-in redundancy. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 24th, 2004, 10:41 AM	#14
Alex Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Orleans, Ontario, Canada Posts: 36	I agree with the above... Spend the money properly. But to be honest, I've never heard of the FireStore.. Yet another product I'm going to have to look into. -alex __________________ --------------------------- Alexander Papaps Senior Producer JumpPoint Entertainment www.jumppoint.org

November 24th, 2004, 11:58 AM	#15
Dustin Cross Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 133	I agree that getting the best tape is worth the money, but I have never found a Sony miniDV tape that was as reliable as Panasonic MQ, or any other miniDV tape that was as reliable as the Panasonic MQ. I have had much better experience with $7 Panasonic MQ tapes than I have with $20 Sony DVCAM tapes. So I wouldn't rely on these new tapes until we know it works better. __________________ Mahalo, Dusty