Dropouts and tape...

Bill Pryor · November 24th, 2004, 01:12 PM

For me, tape is cheap. I came to video from shooting 16mm, and back in those days I was spending approximately $125 per ten minute reel for film stock, processing and workprinting. Not counting shipping costs to and from the lab. That means an hour would, in those days, have been about $750. And in addition to shipping, if I had any sound, there was the cost of transferring the 1/4" tape to 16mm mag stock and syncing it up. So, it was probably in the neighborhood of a thousand bucks for an hour of film.

I don't remember the exact cost of 2" tape when I got into video, but 1" was cheaper; and then when I started shooting 3/4" it was about $30 for a 20 minute minicassette. The Betacam SP came around, and it was about $30 for 30 minutes, even cheaper than 3/4". Later on it dropped to under 20 bucks if you bought in quantity. And then, DVCAM arrived and now we pay under 50 bucks for 3 HOUR cassettes. That's almost free by my standards.

If you're shooting an independent film, or if you're making a living doing corporate stuff, TV spots or whatever, it's foolish, in my opinion, to use anything less than the best tape stock you can get. If you're shooting home movies with a single chip camcorder, then maybe you wouldn't want to spend over 5 bucks for a tape; that's understandable. For real work, though, $18 for an hour tape is nothing.

Curtis Rhoads · November 24th, 2004, 03:34 PM

I agree that tape is cheap. And the price of Sony's HDV tapes doesn't really bother me. However, since Sony's HDV tape isn't out (last I checked), I was curious as to what people were shooting on, and how the dropouts were across the different brands of tape. (knowing that the cheaper the tape, the worse the dropouts are most likely going to be)

When I decided to get back into video 1.5 years ago, I learned the hard way about some of the "cheaper" tape brands out there. Ever since I've shot on Panasonic MQ tapes. I know that when I buy myself a Z1U, that I'll most likely be shooting onto Sony's HDV tapes. Unless of course someone comes out with a better tape! :)

Bill Pryor · November 24th, 2004, 03:47 PM

I've been using Sony DVCAM tapes for about 4 years now and have had no dropout problems. I shot Betacam SP for a dozen years before that and used Fuji almost exclusively and had no trouble with it. Back when Ampex was making Betacam SP tape I had a few tapes with problems, but when I switched to Fuji all was well. I think you're right--they key is to use quality tape stock. And, handle it properly and keep dirt out of your camera and decks. Also, the only time I ever reuse tape is for worktape for copying artwork and things like that. I always use new stock for any shoot.

Alex Pappas · November 24th, 2004, 03:57 PM

Some good feedback here for sure.

I would like to say, hopefully its not OT but DVCPro has been a huge problem for us. It was truly reminisent of the Hi-8 days (if your memories go back that far).

So really, anything is going to be better then thoughs brands.
But don't forget, NO STOCK IS PERFECT. Even film, as it was mentioned, can have issues if the gate isn't checked properly.

Though you won't get dropout on film obviously, there are litterally a hundred other problems that can happen.

______________

Now, IMO, its all well and good to say to spend money on good tape stock. But I'm curious.

For HDV systems, What is the best tape stock currently available? Any opinions? I've never had issues with MAXELL 60's.. But I'm curious ...

...Guys, what do you think? Whats the best stock available?

Jacques Mersereau · November 24th, 2004, 06:40 PM

Our experience has been that DVCpro is SOLID, but only if you spend lots of
money to keep *the deck serviced*. Most problems come from decks that need
work. They have a tranisitor that burns out after a thousand hours and
you have to replace them ALL.
Everyone of our (10) 650s has required $1k-3k of repairs.
The lack of firewire turned us toward DSR-11s and we quickly found out about
the 'prosumer' DSR11 and how Sony is now on its 9th "basket" revision.

My experience with DVCAM is that the three hour tapes have more dropouts
than good miniDV stock like Sony PR, EX and Panny Pro. I even found _slight_
drop outs on DVCAM two hour tapes recently. I ponied for the DVCAM
Master Quality and they're great, but $38.00 for a two hour . . . oof!
Panny Pro miniDV stock is probably the best buy . . .
I can't remember a drop out!!!

But back to the thread: I don't see how HDV trying to cover four times
the pixel count of NTSC (or PAL) can look acceptable when DV barely hangs
using the same bandwidth? Don't give me, 'it's a better codec' stuff
'cuz MPEG2 is OLD and NO ONE is going to make the mistake of DV!!!

Carl Merritt · November 24th, 2004, 10:21 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau : Our
But back to the thread: I don't see how HDV trying to cover four times
the pixel count of NTSC (or PAL) can look acceptable when DV barely hangs
using the same bandwidth? Don't give me, 'it's a better codec' stuff
'cuz MPEG2 is OLD and NO ONE is going to make the mistake of DV!!! -->>>

The way I'm imaginging the process, if I understand correctly, is HDV is really only recording two-frames per second of 60i HD rez. Due to the 15 frame GOP, the other 28 frames are just the difference between those two frames, and the first frame of the next second. I guess usually this is a lot less information.

Ozzy Alvarez · November 25th, 2004, 12:33 AM

Anybody think that when the Z1 comes out, that using DVCam tapes might help to avoid dropouts? If I"m correct, DVcam tapes are suppose to be much sturdier and more robust than DV tapes and help to avoid dropouts alot more than DV tapes. So, I'm curious if that's an avenue to take with the Z1.

Also, since Sony is releasing the DVM63HD, which is a DV tape which is supposed to handle the HDV images alot better that a standard DV tape for the FX1, any chance that Sony might come out with an equivalent type of tape for their Z1 which records on DVcam tapes? Maybe some sort of HDVcam tape??

Ozzy

Mike Tiffee · November 25th, 2004, 08:57 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Curtis Rhoads : However, since Sony's HDV tape isn't out (last I checked), I was curious as to what people were shooting on, and how the dropouts were across the different brands of tape. -->>>

The Sony HDV tape has been out ever since the FX-1 has been out. I've had two boxes of them at my house for the last few weeks.

Ozzy,
You can use the DVCAM tapes in the FX-1 or any DV camera to record DV footage. The DVM63HD will work in the FX-1 and Z1 to record HDV footage- there is no need for another tape. There is no HDVCAM recording- DVCAM on the Z1 is SD DV only.

irock@mac.com · December 3rd, 2004, 05:55 PM

I found Sony HDV Tapes for $11.69
I'll be getting my FX1 next week
If these tapes are designed for the FX1 that is what I'll use
My 24 Track Audio Deck, I only use Tapes it was Bio'sed for
Using tape thats has be engineered for it is worth not losing That one shot

http://store.yahoo.com/edgewisemedia/somidvhd63mi.html

November 24th, 2004, 03:57 PM	#19
Alex Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Orleans, Ontario, Canada Posts: 36	Some good feedback here for sure. I would like to say, hopefully its not OT but DVCPro has been a huge problem for us. It was truly reminisent of the Hi-8 days (if your memories go back that far). So really, anything is going to be better then thoughs brands. But don't forget, NO STOCK IS PERFECT. Even film, as it was mentioned, can have issues if the gate isn't checked properly. Though you won't get dropout on film obviously, there are litterally a hundred other problems that can happen. ______________ Now, IMO, its all well and good to say to spend money on good tape stock. But I'm curious. For HDV systems, What is the best tape stock currently available? Any opinions? I've never had issues with MAXELL 60's.. But I'm curious ... ...Guys, what do you think? Whats the best stock available? __________________ --------------------------- Alexander Papaps Senior Producer JumpPoint Entertainment www.jumppoint.org

November 24th, 2004, 06:40 PM	#20
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	Our experience has been that DVCpro is SOLID, but only if you spend lots of money to keep the deck serviced. Most problems come from decks that need work. They have a tranisitor that burns out after a thousand hours and you have to replace them ALL. Everyone of our (10) 650s has required $1k-3k of repairs. The lack of firewire turned us toward DSR-11s and we quickly found out about the 'prosumer' DSR11 and how Sony is now on its 9th "basket" revision. My experience with DVCAM is that the three hour tapes have more dropouts than good miniDV stock like Sony PR, EX and Panny Pro. I even found _slight_ drop outs on DVCAM two hour tapes recently. I ponied for the DVCAM Master Quality and they're great, but $38.00 for a two hour . . . oof! Panny Pro miniDV stock is probably the best buy . . . I can't remember a drop out!!! But back to the thread: I don't see how HDV trying to cover four times the pixel count of NTSC (or PAL) can look acceptable when DV barely hangs using the same bandwidth? Don't give me, 'it's a better codec' stuff 'cuz MPEG2 is OLD and NO ONE is going to make the mistake of DV!!! __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

December 3rd, 2004, 05:55 PM	#24
irock@mac.com Tourist Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Phx,Az Posts: 4	Sony HD Tape for 11.69 I found Sony HDV Tapes for $11.69 I'll be getting my FX1 next week If these tapes are designed for the FX1 that is what I'll use My 24 Track Audio Deck, I only use Tapes it was Bio'sed for Using tape thats has be engineered for it is worth not losing That one shot http://store.yahoo.com/edgewisemedia/somidvhd63mi.html

November 24th, 2004, 01:12 PM	#16
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	For me, tape is cheap. I came to video from shooting 16mm, and back in those days I was spending approximately $125 per ten minute reel for film stock, processing and workprinting. Not counting shipping costs to and from the lab. That means an hour would, in those days, have been about $750. And in addition to shipping, if I had any sound, there was the cost of transferring the 1/4" tape to 16mm mag stock and syncing it up. So, it was probably in the neighborhood of a thousand bucks for an hour of film. I don't remember the exact cost of 2" tape when I got into video, but 1" was cheaper; and then when I started shooting 3/4" it was about $30 for a 20 minute minicassette. The Betacam SP came around, and it was about $30 for 30 minutes, even cheaper than 3/4". Later on it dropped to under 20 bucks if you bought in quantity. And then, DVCAM arrived and now we pay under 50 bucks for 3 HOUR cassettes. That's almost free by my standards. If you're shooting an independent film, or if you're making a living doing corporate stuff, TV spots or whatever, it's foolish, in my opinion, to use anything less than the best tape stock you can get. If you're shooting home movies with a single chip camcorder, then maybe you wouldn't want to spend over 5 bucks for a tape; that's understandable. For real work, though, $18 for an hour tape is nothing.

November 24th, 2004, 03:34 PM	#17
Curtis Rhoads Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orem, UT Posts: 76	I agree that tape is cheap. And the price of Sony's HDV tapes doesn't really bother me. However, since Sony's HDV tape isn't out (last I checked), I was curious as to what people were shooting on, and how the dropouts were across the different brands of tape. (knowing that the cheaper the tape, the worse the dropouts are most likely going to be) When I decided to get back into video 1.5 years ago, I learned the hard way about some of the "cheaper" tape brands out there. Ever since I've shot on Panasonic MQ tapes. I know that when I buy myself a Z1U, that I'll most likely be shooting onto Sony's HDV tapes. Unless of course someone comes out with a better tape! :)

November 24th, 2004, 03:47 PM	#18
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	I've been using Sony DVCAM tapes for about 4 years now and have had no dropout problems. I shot Betacam SP for a dozen years before that and used Fuji almost exclusively and had no trouble with it. Back when Ampex was making Betacam SP tape I had a few tapes with problems, but when I switched to Fuji all was well. I think you're right--they key is to use quality tape stock. And, handle it properly and keep dirt out of your camera and decks. Also, the only time I ever reuse tape is for worktape for copying artwork and things like that. I always use new stock for any shoot.

November 24th, 2004, 10:21 PM	#21
Carl Merritt Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 60	<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau : Our But back to the thread: I don't see how HDV trying to cover four times the pixel count of NTSC (or PAL) can look acceptable when DV barely hangs using the same bandwidth? Don't give me, 'it's a better codec' stuff 'cuz MPEG2 is OLD and NO ONE is going to make the mistake of DV!!! -->>> The way I'm imaginging the process, if I understand correctly, is HDV is really only recording two-frames per second of 60i HD rez. Due to the 15 frame GOP, the other 28 frames are just the difference between those two frames, and the first frame of the next second. I guess usually this is a lot less information.

November 25th, 2004, 12:33 AM	#22
Ozzy Alvarez Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Kenilworth, NJ Posts: 85	Anybody think that when the Z1 comes out, that using DVCam tapes might help to avoid dropouts? If I"m correct, DVcam tapes are suppose to be much sturdier and more robust than DV tapes and help to avoid dropouts alot more than DV tapes. So, I'm curious if that's an avenue to take with the Z1. Also, since Sony is releasing the DVM63HD, which is a DV tape which is supposed to handle the HDV images alot better that a standard DV tape for the FX1, any chance that Sony might come out with an equivalent type of tape for their Z1 which records on DVcam tapes? Maybe some sort of HDVcam tape?? Ozzy

November 25th, 2004, 08:57 AM	#23
Mike Tiffee Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 150	<<<-- Originally posted by Curtis Rhoads : However, since Sony's HDV tape isn't out (last I checked), I was curious as to what people were shooting on, and how the dropouts were across the different brands of tape. -->>> The Sony HDV tape has been out ever since the FX-1 has been out. I've had two boxes of them at my house for the last few weeks. Ozzy, You can use the DVCAM tapes in the FX-1 or any DV camera to record DV footage. The DVM63HD will work in the FX-1 and Z1 to record HDV footage- there is no need for another tape. There is no HDVCAM recording- DVCAM on the Z1 is SD DV only.