Charlie White's review of Pro Z1... is he wrong? at DVinfo.net

Mark Kubat · November 18th, 2004, 06:02 AM

http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/a...e.jsp?id=29230

I'm "concerned" a bit about the paragraph re: cineframe 24 and how "good" it is... er, this sounds like news to me...??? Is there something we're all missing?

Great pics and great review overall - man, this kinda press gets my blood pumping - I cannot wait till 2005!!!

Josef Crow · November 18th, 2004, 01:55 PM

Review suggests the Z1 records at 48fps and with deinterlacing, records 24p? (not true progressive, but "exactly like 24p if not better"). who can confirm?

Peter Moore · November 18th, 2004, 02:35 PM

I can't get over the amount of conflicting information on this.

Anyway, if it is recording 48 fields per second, it is not "as good as" 24p, because blur still needs to be added to remove combing when there's fast motion.

It's probably good enough, though, at least for 1280x720 displays (which most now are). We're not going to get perfect 1920x1080/24p footage out of anything but the Cinealta.

If the article's even half true though, this WILL be my next camera.

Christopher C. Murphy · November 18th, 2004, 02:50 PM

I read this article this morning, and it seemed to me like the guy was brown nosing a little. It can't be as good or better than 24p because it isn't!

Murph

Tim Brown · November 18th, 2004, 03:13 PM

It has been reported on camcorderinfo.com by attendees at the unveiling in New York that the HVR-Z1 uses the same 24fps method as the FX1.

Hope this helps.

Mark Kubat · November 18th, 2004, 04:11 PM

Chris, any comments on this? Maybe since DSE is so intricately involved via the editing process with Sony/Cineform, he can weigh in on this issue and clear it up once and for all?

Charlie is usually so thorough, so on-the-money - I can't decide if he knows something that the rest of us don't or if he's off the mark this time re: cineframe 24 on the Z1...

BTW, Chris, there was another article at dvformat.com that had a nice quote from you re: the cam from NY and if I was a Canon XL2 user, your statement alone re: Z1 would have converted me to Sony for all eternity...

"I was really impressed when I first saw the type of image quality that the Z1 captures" said Chris Hurd, president of DVInfoNet and HDV InfoNet. "And I remain impressed. Sony has outdone itself with this camera."

http://www.dvformat.com/articles/vie...e.jsp?id=29075

Peter Moore · November 18th, 2004, 04:28 PM

I don't think this is going to be resolved until we're actually using the camera.

Chris Hurd · November 18th, 2004, 08:19 PM

<< It has been reported on camcorderinfo.com by attendees at the unveiling in New York that the HVR-Z1 uses the same 24fps method as the FX1. >>

Oh, please -- I have reported that myself, right here! I was there too, you know.

I'll get back to answer Mark's post here a little but later tonight...

Peter Moore · November 19th, 2004, 12:34 AM

Maybe the people at Sony don't even know.

Chris Hurd · November 19th, 2004, 04:57 AM

Actually the people at Sony DO know. And, there is no conflicting information at all. Having read Charlie's article, I'm not seeing what the concern is here. His statement that CF24 is "as good as" 24P is his own subjective evaluation which he is certainly entitled to. Some people will agree with him on that and some won't. It's just like what I said earlier: CF24 produces nearly the same results as progressive scan -- but by a different method. The principles of good production values using CF24 are the same for 24P. In other words, if you're not careful with that frame rate then it's not going to look very good. CF24 is to these Sony camcorders as Frame Movie mode is to Canon and Panasonic camcorders: the best emulation of progressive scan that you can get with an interlaced chipset.

There is *no difference* in CF24 between the FX1 and Z1U. They are exactly identical in that respect. You get another gamma setting with the Z1U but the CineFrame 24 mode is exactly the same as the FX1. What the Z1U buys for you in terms of frame rates is the CineFrame 25 mode.

Any other questions, fellows? Charlie did write an enthusiastic review. It was nice to finally meet him in New York last week.

Mike Tiffee · November 19th, 2004, 07:35 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Having read Charlie's article, I'm not seeing what the concern is here. -->>>

The "concern" that some people are having is this statement:

"We first saw this CineFrame technology in the HDR-FX1, Sony ’s consumer-level camcorder , but in that model, the company billed it as delivering “a feeling of film-like 24 fps.” This new Z1 model is actually shooting at 24 frames/48 fields per second, so the CineFrame technology has an easier time of electronically combining two fields into one progressive frame, giving you the same or better video than you’d get if you were actually shooting at 24p, especially considering the small size of these CCDs. The result to these trained eyes is some great-looking, smoothly cadenced 24-frame footage that looks exactly like 24p if not better. Bravo, Sony ."

When he says "But in that model..." referring to the FX-1
and then "This new Z1 Model is actually..." referring to the Z1 specifically, it sounds as if he's comparing two two cameras.. basically he's saying the FX-1 only delivers a "feeling of fim-like 24fps" and the Z1 delivers the real thing.

Tim Brown · November 19th, 2004, 08:13 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : << It has been reported on camcorderinfo.com by attendees at the unveiling in New York that the HVR-Z1 uses the same 24fps method as the FX1. >>

Oh, please -- I have reported that myself, right here! I was there too, you know.

I'll get back to answer Mark's post here a little but later tonight... -->>>

Sorry Chris. I was aware that you had attended the event but had not read any posts you had concerning the matter of the 24f mode on the Z1.

It was my intent to only help Mark find an answer.

I apologize if you were offended.

Tim

Peter Moore · November 19th, 2004, 08:33 AM

Chris, sorry but there is definitely a conflict between what you're saying and what the article is saying. I'm obviously inclined to believe you, but I still question whether anyone at Sony has this straight. And no one has yet confirmed anywhere whether the pulldown is easily removed like it is on the Panasonic DVX100A. Or whether it uses 2:3:3:2.

Tim Brown · November 19th, 2004, 08:40 AM

For clarification so I don't add to the confusion.

I was speaking specifically concerning the 24f modes being identical on the Z1 and the FX-1, not the intricacies thereof.

The net is a wonderful thing but the proliferation of "misinformation" drives me batty!

Tim

Mike Tiffee · November 19th, 2004, 08:43 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Moore : Chris, sorry but there is definitely a conflict between what you're saying and what the article is saying. I'm obviously inclined to believe you, but I still question whether anyone at Sony has this straight. And no one has yet confirmed anywhere whether the pulldown is easily removed like it is on the Panasonic DVX100A. Or whether it uses 2:3:3:2. -->>>

I've sucessfully removed the pulldown from the FX-1 in after effects and it works great.. footage playsback smoothly. The FX-1 uses 3:2 pulldown.

November 18th, 2004, 06:02 AM	#1
Mark Kubat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 375	Charlie White's review of Pro Z1... is he wrong? http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/a...e.jsp?id=29230 I'm "concerned" a bit about the paragraph re: cineframe 24 and how "good" it is... er, this sounds like news to me...??? Is there something we're all missing? Great pics and great review overall - man, this kinda press gets my blood pumping - I cannot wait till 2005!!!

November 18th, 2004, 02:50 PM	#4
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	I read this article this morning, and it seemed to me like the guy was brown nosing a little. It can't be as good or better than 24p because it isn't! Murph __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

November 18th, 2004, 04:11 PM	#6
Mark Kubat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 375	Chris Hurd, call in DSE to settle this... Chris, any comments on this? Maybe since DSE is so intricately involved via the editing process with Sony/Cineform, he can weigh in on this issue and clear it up once and for all? Charlie is usually so thorough, so on-the-money - I can't decide if he knows something that the rest of us don't or if he's off the mark this time re: cineframe 24 on the Z1... BTW, Chris, there was another article at dvformat.com that had a nice quote from you re: the cam from NY and if I was a Canon XL2 user, your statement alone re: Z1 would have converted me to Sony for all eternity... "I was really impressed when I first saw the type of image quality that the Z1 captures" said Chris Hurd, president of DVInfoNet and HDV InfoNet. "And I remain impressed. Sony has outdone itself with this camera." http://www.dvformat.com/articles/vie...e.jsp?id=29075

November 18th, 2004, 08:19 PM	#8
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	<< It has been reported on camcorderinfo.com by attendees at the unveiling in New York that the HVR-Z1 uses the same 24fps method as the FX1. >> Oh, please -- I have reported that myself, right here! I was there too, you know. I'll get back to answer Mark's post here a little but later tonight... __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 19th, 2004, 04:57 AM	#10
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Actually the people at Sony DO know. And, there is no conflicting information at all. Having read Charlie's article, I'm not seeing what the concern is here. His statement that CF24 is "as good as" 24P is his own subjective evaluation which he is certainly entitled to. Some people will agree with him on that and some won't. It's just like what I said earlier: CF24 produces nearly the same results as progressive scan -- but by a different method. The principles of good production values using CF24 are the same for 24P. In other words, if you're not careful with that frame rate then it's not going to look very good. CF24 is to these Sony camcorders as Frame Movie mode is to Canon and Panasonic camcorders: the best emulation of progressive scan that you can get with an interlaced chipset. There is no difference in CF24 between the FX1 and Z1U. They are exactly identical in that respect. You get another gamma setting with the Z1U but the CineFrame 24 mode is exactly the same as the FX1. What the Z1U buys for you in terms of frame rates is the CineFrame 25 mode. Any other questions, fellows? Charlie did write an enthusiastic review. It was nice to finally meet him in New York last week. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 18th, 2004, 01:55 PM	#2
Josef Crow Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: new york, ny Posts: 66	Review suggests the Z1 records at 48fps and with deinterlacing, records 24p? (not true progressive, but "exactly like 24p if not better"). who can confirm?

November 18th, 2004, 02:35 PM	#3
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	I can't get over the amount of conflicting information on this. Anyway, if it is recording 48 fields per second, it is not "as good as" 24p, because blur still needs to be added to remove combing when there's fast motion. It's probably good enough, though, at least for 1280x720 displays (which most now are). We're not going to get perfect 1920x1080/24p footage out of anything but the Cinealta. If the article's even half true though, this WILL be my next camera.

November 18th, 2004, 03:13 PM	#5
Tim Brown Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Richmond, Virginia Posts: 263	It has been reported on camcorderinfo.com by attendees at the unveiling in New York that the HVR-Z1 uses the same 24fps method as the FX1. Hope this helps.

November 18th, 2004, 04:28 PM	#7
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	I don't think this is going to be resolved until we're actually using the camera.

November 19th, 2004, 12:34 AM	#9
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Maybe the people at Sony don't even know.

November 19th, 2004, 07:35 AM	#11
Mike Tiffee Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 150	<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Having read Charlie's article, I'm not seeing what the concern is here. -->>> The "concern" that some people are having is this statement: "We first saw this CineFrame technology in the HDR-FX1, Sony ’s consumer-level camcorder , but in that model, the company billed it as delivering “a feeling of film-like 24 fps.” This new Z1 model is actually shooting at 24 frames/48 fields per second, so the CineFrame technology has an easier time of electronically combining two fields into one progressive frame, giving you the same or better video than you’d get if you were actually shooting at 24p, especially considering the small size of these CCDs. The result to these trained eyes is some great-looking, smoothly cadenced 24-frame footage that looks exactly like 24p if not better. Bravo, Sony ." When he says "But in that model..." referring to the FX-1 and then "This new Z1 Model is actually..." referring to the Z1 specifically, it sounds as if he's comparing two two cameras.. basically he's saying the FX-1 only delivers a "feeling of fim-like 24fps" and the Z1 delivers the real thing.

November 19th, 2004, 08:13 AM	#12
Tim Brown Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Richmond, Virginia Posts: 263	<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : << It has been reported on camcorderinfo.com by attendees at the unveiling in New York that the HVR-Z1 uses the same 24fps method as the FX1. >> Oh, please -- I have reported that myself, right here! I was there too, you know. I'll get back to answer Mark's post here a little but later tonight... -->>> Sorry Chris. I was aware that you had attended the event but had not read any posts you had concerning the matter of the 24f mode on the Z1. It was my intent to only help Mark find an answer. I apologize if you were offended. Tim

November 19th, 2004, 08:33 AM	#13
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Chris, sorry but there is definitely a conflict between what you're saying and what the article is saying. I'm obviously inclined to believe you, but I still question whether anyone at Sony has this straight. And no one has yet confirmed anywhere whether the pulldown is easily removed like it is on the Panasonic DVX100A. Or whether it uses 2:3:3:2.

November 19th, 2004, 08:40 AM	#14
Tim Brown Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Richmond, Virginia Posts: 263	For clarification so I don't add to the confusion. I was speaking specifically concerning the 24f modes being identical on the Z1 and the FX-1, not the intricacies thereof. The net is a wonderful thing but the proliferation of "misinformation" drives me batty! Tim

November 19th, 2004, 08:43 AM	#15
Mike Tiffee Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 150	<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Moore : Chris, sorry but there is definitely a conflict between what you're saying and what the article is saying. I'm obviously inclined to believe you, but I still question whether anyone at Sony has this straight. And no one has yet confirmed anywhere whether the pulldown is easily removed like it is on the Panasonic DVX100A. Or whether it uses 2:3:3:2. -->>> I've sucessfully removed the pulldown from the FX-1 in after effects and it works great.. footage playsback smoothly. The FX-1 uses 3:2 pulldown.