CineFrame 24 Downcoverted at DVinfo.net

Curtis Rhoads · November 10th, 2004, 02:41 PM

Can anyone or will anyone try shooting in CineFrame 24, and then use the HDV -> DV downconvertor of the camera to import the file as DV and then inside Vegas tell it to remove the pulldown? I was noticing over at another forum that several people have taken CineFrame 24 footage, changed it to uncompressed AVI and then had Vegas remove the pulldown, and it appeared to work (wasn't the best from what I remember, but....). I'm just curious if Vegas will attempt to remove the pulldown again. Maybe save an extra step? :)

Jeff Kilgroe · November 10th, 2004, 04:00 PM

Downconverting to DV and then trying to remove the pulldown is going to give crap results no matter what. By downconverting the video, you are re-sampling and re-compressing it. This takes the video and the field motion just another large step from the original. It's best to remove the pulldown and convert to 24p within the 1080i footage, then down-convert to SD if necessary.

I was playing with Kaku's Cineframe24 clip and converting to uncompressed 1080i then using 2:3 pulldown to go to 1080p24 gave pretty decent results. However, I was getting better results with his HD clips shot in regular 60i. I really would like to get my hands on a test clip from the PAL camera that supports 50i HDV and try to go to 24p from that. It should give a better image too with fewer compression artifacts as it's compressing 17% fewer frames into the same 25Mbps stream and should still have enough temporal information to give as good (and possibly a more film-like appearance) as what we get converting from 60i.

Al Chapman · November 11th, 2004, 01:53 PM

Hello from PAL land. I have been playing with my 50i Fx1. One thing I have found is I can't tell the differnce between shooting with the progressive "look" selected or shooting with the shutter set to 1/25th. I have shot a couple of scenes and then simply slowed them down from 25 to 24 fps. The difference in speed is hardly noticable, even the audio dosn't sound bad (you can always do a slight pitch shift to compensate). The beauty of this is that you don't have to recompress which helps keep the quality up. It does look very filmic especially with the cine gamma curve, a little extra chroma and the sharpness turned down a couple of notches, all programmable in-camera.

Dennis Adams · November 12th, 2004, 08:35 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Curtis Rhoads : Can anyone or will anyone try shooting in CineFrame 24, and then use the HDV -> DV downconvertor of the camera to import the file as DV and then inside Vegas tell it to remove the pulldown? I was noticing over at another forum that several people have taken CineFrame 24 footage, changed it to uncompressed AVI and then had Vegas remove the pulldown, and it appeared to work (wasn't the best from what I remember, but....). I'm just curious if Vegas will attempt to remove the pulldown again. Maybe save an extra step? :) -->>>

Yes, Cineframe24 HDV captured as Widescreen DV can have the 2:3 pulldown removed in Vegas 5.

///d@
Sony Media Software

Donal Briard · November 12th, 2004, 10:14 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Dennis Adams : <<<-- Originally posted by Curtis Rhoads : Can anyone or will anyone try shooting in CineFrame 24, and then use the HDV -> DV downconvertor of the camera to import the file as DV and then inside Vegas tell it to remove the pulldown? I was noticing over at another forum that several people have taken CineFrame 24 footage, changed it to uncompressed AVI and then had Vegas remove the pulldown, and it appeared to work (wasn't the best from what I remember, but....). I'm just curious if Vegas will attempt to remove the pulldown again. Maybe save an extra step? :) -->>>

Yes, Cineframe24 HDV captured as Widescreen DV can have the 2:3 pulldown removed in Vegas 5.

///d@
Sony Media Software -->>>

P.S. It looks like crap.

Donal Briard · November 12th, 2004, 10:16 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Al Chapman : Hello from PAL land. I have been playing with my 50i Fx1. One thing I have found is I can't tell the differnce between shooting with the progressive "look" selected or shooting with the shutter set to 1/25th. I have shot a couple of scenes and then simply slowed them down from 25 to 24 fps. The difference in speed is hardly noticable, even the audio dosn't sound bad (you can always do a slight pitch shift to compensate). The beauty of this is that you don't have to recompress which helps keep the quality up. It does look very filmic especially with the cine gamma curve, a little extra chroma and the sharpness turned down a couple of notches, all programmable in-camera. -->>>

a 4% slow down has always been a standard for transferring PAL to film. There is absolutely no discernible difference to the audience (which, as always, is all you should care about).

FCP has a simple conform 25>24 menu for this.

Dennis Adams · November 12th, 2004, 04:01 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Donal Briard :

P.S. It looks like crap. -->>>

You've tried it? What issues did you see with it?

I rendered to Widescreen 24p MPEG-2 for DVD and watched it on a good monitor.

The clip I had was shot at something faster than 1/60 shutter, so it strobed some.

CF24 really should default to 1/60 shutter, and it would be nice if the camera could do slower than that, but it can't.

The best 24p results I've seen were shot at 1/60 shutter in 60i mode and software processed into 24p.

///d@
Sony Media Software

November 10th, 2004, 02:41 PM	#1
Curtis Rhoads Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orem, UT Posts: 76	CineFrame 24 Downcoverted Can anyone or will anyone try shooting in CineFrame 24, and then use the HDV -> DV downconvertor of the camera to import the file as DV and then inside Vegas tell it to remove the pulldown? I was noticing over at another forum that several people have taken CineFrame 24 footage, changed it to uncompressed AVI and then had Vegas remove the pulldown, and it appeared to work (wasn't the best from what I remember, but....). I'm just curious if Vegas will attempt to remove the pulldown again. Maybe save an extra step? :)

November 10th, 2004, 04:00 PM	#2
Jeff Kilgroe Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Golden, CO Posts: 681	Downconverting to DV and then trying to remove the pulldown is going to give crap results no matter what. By downconverting the video, you are re-sampling and re-compressing it. This takes the video and the field motion just another large step from the original. It's best to remove the pulldown and convert to 24p within the 1080i footage, then down-convert to SD if necessary. I was playing with Kaku's Cineframe24 clip and converting to uncompressed 1080i then using 2:3 pulldown to go to 1080p24 gave pretty decent results. However, I was getting better results with his HD clips shot in regular 60i. I really would like to get my hands on a test clip from the PAL camera that supports 50i HDV and try to go to 24p from that. It should give a better image too with fewer compression artifacts as it's compressing 17% fewer frames into the same 25Mbps stream and should still have enough temporal information to give as good (and possibly a more film-like appearance) as what we get converting from 60i. __________________ - Jeff Kilgroe - Applied Visual Technologies \| DarkScience - www.darkscience.com

November 11th, 2004, 01:53 PM	#3
Al Chapman New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Bracknell, UK Posts: 15	Hello from PAL land. I have been playing with my 50i Fx1. One thing I have found is I can't tell the differnce between shooting with the progressive "look" selected or shooting with the shutter set to 1/25th. I have shot a couple of scenes and then simply slowed them down from 25 to 24 fps. The difference in speed is hardly noticable, even the audio dosn't sound bad (you can always do a slight pitch shift to compensate). The beauty of this is that you don't have to recompress which helps keep the quality up. It does look very filmic especially with the cine gamma curve, a little extra chroma and the sharpness turned down a couple of notches, all programmable in-camera. __________________ FREELANCE CAMERA CREW www.tvcameraman.info CREWS, EDITING, STOCK FOOTAGE www.ingenioustv.co.uk

November 12th, 2004, 08:35 AM	#4
Dennis Adams Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 123	Re: CineFrame 24 Downcoverted <<<-- Originally posted by Curtis Rhoads : Can anyone or will anyone try shooting in CineFrame 24, and then use the HDV -> DV downconvertor of the camera to import the file as DV and then inside Vegas tell it to remove the pulldown? I was noticing over at another forum that several people have taken CineFrame 24 footage, changed it to uncompressed AVI and then had Vegas remove the pulldown, and it appeared to work (wasn't the best from what I remember, but....). I'm just curious if Vegas will attempt to remove the pulldown again. Maybe save an extra step? :) -->>> Yes, Cineframe24 HDV captured as Widescreen DV can have the 2:3 pulldown removed in Vegas 5. ///d@ Sony Media Software

November 12th, 2004, 10:14 AM	#5
Donal Briard Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 43	Re: Re: CineFrame 24 Downcoverted <<<-- Originally posted by Dennis Adams : <<<-- Originally posted by Curtis Rhoads : Can anyone or will anyone try shooting in CineFrame 24, and then use the HDV -> DV downconvertor of the camera to import the file as DV and then inside Vegas tell it to remove the pulldown? I was noticing over at another forum that several people have taken CineFrame 24 footage, changed it to uncompressed AVI and then had Vegas remove the pulldown, and it appeared to work (wasn't the best from what I remember, but....). I'm just curious if Vegas will attempt to remove the pulldown again. Maybe save an extra step? :) -->>> Yes, Cineframe24 HDV captured as Widescreen DV can have the 2:3 pulldown removed in Vegas 5. ///d@ Sony Media Software -->>> P.S. It looks like crap.

November 12th, 2004, 10:16 AM	#6
Donal Briard Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 43	<<<-- Originally posted by Al Chapman : Hello from PAL land. I have been playing with my 50i Fx1. One thing I have found is I can't tell the differnce between shooting with the progressive "look" selected or shooting with the shutter set to 1/25th. I have shot a couple of scenes and then simply slowed them down from 25 to 24 fps. The difference in speed is hardly noticable, even the audio dosn't sound bad (you can always do a slight pitch shift to compensate). The beauty of this is that you don't have to recompress which helps keep the quality up. It does look very filmic especially with the cine gamma curve, a little extra chroma and the sharpness turned down a couple of notches, all programmable in-camera. -->>> a 4% slow down has always been a standard for transferring PAL to film. There is absolutely no discernible difference to the audience (which, as always, is all you should care about). FCP has a simple conform 25>24 menu for this.

November 12th, 2004, 04:01 PM	#7
Dennis Adams Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 123	Re: Re: Re: CineFrame 24 Downcoverted <<<-- Originally posted by Donal Briard : P.S. It looks like crap. -->>> You've tried it? What issues did you see with it? I rendered to Widescreen 24p MPEG-2 for DVD and watched it on a good monitor. The clip I had was shot at something faster than 1/60 shutter, so it strobed some. CF24 really should default to 1/60 shutter, and it would be nice if the camera could do slower than that, but it can't. The best 24p results I've seen were shot at 1/60 shutter in 60i mode and software processed into 24p. ///d@ Sony Media Software