Raw HDR-FX1 mpeg2 files are posted.

Scott Anderson · October 29th, 2004, 02:22 PM

From the article:

"We had 3000 euro, a half-full tank and were nonsmokers. The development of DRAKE 1 could begin..."

I suspect this is the babelfish translation of a Blues Brothers reference. Anyway, it looks as if Markus and company are using medical or industrial CCDs and engineering their own DSP and capturing direct to disk. I wonder how the optical path works? Is it a 3-CCD with prism arrangemet? The article talked about black & white CCDs, but I can't understand the details. I understood the desire for a true 35mm light path to duplicate 35mm depth of field directly onto the CCDs.

I truly want to see how the "small problem with fixed pattern noise" has been fixed. This is no "small problem" - it looks like getting much too close to a DLP projector! Not very pleasing. You can also see this problem in the 2nd still that Michael posted. Look at the shirt.

For $3000 Euros, this is a very interesting development. Imagine if the the near future if 35mm equal "webcams" were sold that connected directly to a laptop or a firewire hard drive, and had a PL mount, Nikon mount or even c-mount lens on the front.

Remember, Dalsa was involved in medical imaging long before they started developing a digital film camera.

Scott Anderson · October 29th, 2004, 02:37 PM

I also just realized I've just helped pull this thread way off topic. I want to join everyone else in thanking Kaku for posting the clips. Watching these images playing through VLC player on my Apple Cinema Display was awe-inspiring! I've noticed that after downconverting to DV, the images look much more like "live video", but that's probably just a function of a 60i capture with a 60th shutter. If Sony will only offer 24p on the pro model, I have no doubts that this camera will be ready for indie film applications. The level of detail is stunning, and puts any DV camera, even the higher end broadcast cameras to shame. Sony is going to own the under-$50,000 camera market come next April!

Frederic Lumiere · October 29th, 2004, 03:08 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Scott Anderson : Sony is going to own the under-$50,000 camera market come next April! -->>>

I wouldn't speak so fast. ;)

Kaku Ito · October 29th, 2004, 08:53 PM

Hi Frederic,

Your work with LumiereHD is making it possilbe for my files to be available which I thank you. It wasn't possible to provide such without your software.
Am I correct that I can't demux FX1 files with version 1.2, or I'm doing something wrong.

If there's something I can help you, please let me know.

Jeff Kilgroe · October 29th, 2004, 09:15 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : I wouldn't speak so fast. ;) -->>>

...I'd love to ask for more info, but I also know that if you do know something, you won't be able to spill the beans yet.

I just hope all this HDV stuff shakes down by April/May. I'm pushing the limits of my DVX and need to move to the next level. Sometime late next spring or in early summer would be a great time for me to do that and I plan to buy the best camera I can afford then. It must do 24p and at least as much resolution as the FX1 and also be easily manageable in the field. I'm guestimating my budget will be $25K. Something like that recently announced JVC pro HDV camera may be an option, the pro version of the FX1 may fit the bill too if it indeed does 24p (but I doubt it will). Maybe Panasonic will have a successor to the DVX100? Maybe I'll stumble across a Sony HDC-F9x0 on eBay (yeah, right). I just hope something comes along... It just looks like the prosumer market is going to fall short of what I need and top out at about $7K and the extra I can scrape up for my budget won't buy me what I really would like to have. As of right now, it looks like I'll be buying the pro version of the FX1 and possibly a wide angle lens attachment as well as an underwater housing... But it's all pure speculation at this point. ;-/

Jeff

Frederic Lumiere · October 29th, 2004, 09:17 PM

Kaku,

You are correct. Version 1.2 isn't yet compatible with the Sony devices. Version 1.5 will be fully compatible with all the Sony HDV cameras and decks.

Laurence Kingston · October 29th, 2004, 09:26 PM

Someone asked a while back in this thread about shooting HD and capturing standard DV widescreen. Here is a link to a post on the Vegas forum where a Sony rep says that you can do this:

http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.co...=327630&Page=0

Frederic Lumiere · October 29th, 2004, 09:27 PM

Jeff,

All I can say is "24p help is on the way"...just teasing. It sounds like your wishes will come true sooner than you think, at a more affordable price than you think. HDV is about to become a very competitive field and the ultimate winner is going to be the consumer.

If you plan on waiting a few months until you make a purchasing decision, you're in good shape.

Jeff Kilgroe · October 29th, 2004, 09:36 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : Jeff,

All I can say is "24p help is on the way"...just teasing. It sounds like your wishes will come true sooner than you think, at a more affordable price than you think. HDV is a about to become a very competitive field and the ultimate winner is going to be the consumer.

If you plan on waiting a few months until you make a purchasing decision, you're in good shape. -->>>

Hehe... Well, hopefully you're right. It will be at least 5 months before I make any purchase, so I think I'm in good shape in that regard. Although, with the lack of official announcements and rumors flying around, I find myself saying "screw it" and I start dreaming up ways I might be able to afford a CineAlta. Hehe.

Frederic Lumiere · October 29th, 2004, 09:40 PM

Jeff,

5 months sounds like perfect timing for a sound HDV purchasing decision.

Kaku Ito · October 30th, 2004, 02:21 AM

Frederic,

Could you please confirm about the following? Does LumiereHD version 1.2 capture footage from HDR-FX1 at 1080i with no modification in the data?

Kaku Ito · October 30th, 2004, 02:33 AM

These are totally nothing interesting to watch since they are shot for comparing the frames. So, please don't blame me for shooting something not fun to watch:). It was quite challenging because of the situation on this location at this time of the day. But I think it might give you good ideas of how this cam takes shots like these clips under a terrible circumstances.

These clips are shot in front of my company.
I named these files HDV frame comparison footage, abbreviated as "HDVfcmprsn". These are shot at around 16:30pm, it was getting dark.
No gain added:), F1.7, 1/60, no cinematone even the ones with cinemaframe.

HDVfcmprsn24f.m2t Cinematone off
HDVfcmprsn30f.m2t Cinematone off
HDVfcmprsn60i.m2t

Just in case you can't find the directory...
Here! <Thanx to Heath for reminding me, I keep on forget what it was>

Don't enjoy but compare them well!! :)

Donal Briard · October 30th, 2004, 07:41 AM

Ok, analysis:

1-60i mode shows the most interlacing artifacts (a lot)
2-Cine24 loses a lot of resolving power
3-While 60i produce the sharpest image, Cine30 is #2.

I made screen captures uncompressed of all three clips and used the B.G. post at left as a guide, I blew it up 300% in Photoshop. It is pretty clear cut.

That means this camera's Cine30 is NOT from a real progressive CCD as some have said and that it just de-interlaces the footage a la Magic Bullet in camera.

Cine24 loses a loy of details and is choppy. Garbage look filter.

Kaku Ito · October 30th, 2004, 08:53 AM

Thank you Donal for the analysis.

I should have done DV shooting at the same time. I will do that tomorrow and probably replace with these clips (so, there will be three HDV and three DV clips).

Don Donatello · October 30th, 2004, 01:04 PM

FORGET the 24 cine thing - looks like an effect !!! 30 cine thing is more useable BUT this camera is INTERLACE and that is where this camera SHINES !!

1080i !!!! is excellent ... want 24progressive = look elsewhere ...
don't even consider the FAKE 24 on this camera !

if you are getting interlace artifacts at 1080i then you are either watching on a progressive screen and screen size is smaller then 1920x1080 , and /or your processor can't play back the clips at 29.97 ... well actually if you are playing back on WMP the codec that it is using really wasn't designed for the sony HDV compression .. if you have a HDV plug-in that i suggest you see what speed it's playing back the clip ??

you need to set your monitor to 1920x1080 or larger if you want to see 1080i !!!! if the clip will play back at 29.97 you will see very little interlace artifacts on progressive screen ...
if your player has to scale the clip smaller then it might be introducing artifacts ???

October 29th, 2004, 09:15 PM	#140
Jeff Kilgroe Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Golden, CO Posts: 681	<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : I wouldn't speak so fast. ;) -->>> ...I'd love to ask for more info, but I also know that if you do know something, you won't be able to spill the beans yet. I just hope all this HDV stuff shakes down by April/May. I'm pushing the limits of my DVX and need to move to the next level. Sometime late next spring or in early summer would be a great time for me to do that and I plan to buy the best camera I can afford then. It must do 24p and at least as much resolution as the FX1 and also be easily manageable in the field. I'm guestimating my budget will be $25K. Something like that recently announced JVC pro HDV camera may be an option, the pro version of the FX1 may fit the bill too if it indeed does 24p (but I doubt it will). Maybe Panasonic will have a successor to the DVX100? Maybe I'll stumble across a Sony HDC-F9x0 on eBay (yeah, right). I just hope something comes along... It just looks like the prosumer market is going to fall short of what I need and top out at about $7K and the extra I can scrape up for my budget won't buy me what I really would like to have. As of right now, it looks like I'll be buying the pro version of the FX1 and possibly a wide angle lens attachment as well as an underwater housing... But it's all pure speculation at this point. ;-/ Jeff __________________ - Jeff Kilgroe - Applied Visual Technologies \| DarkScience - www.darkscience.com

October 29th, 2004, 09:36 PM	#144
Jeff Kilgroe Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Golden, CO Posts: 681	<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : Jeff, All I can say is "24p help is on the way"...just teasing. It sounds like your wishes will come true sooner than you think, at a more affordable price than you think. HDV is a about to become a very competitive field and the ultimate winner is going to be the consumer. If you plan on waiting a few months until you make a purchasing decision, you're in good shape. -->>> Hehe... Well, hopefully you're right. It will be at least 5 months before I make any purchase, so I think I'm in good shape in that regard. Although, with the lack of official announcements and rumors flying around, I find myself saying "screw it" and I start dreaming up ways I might be able to afford a CineAlta. Hehe. __________________ - Jeff Kilgroe - Applied Visual Technologies \| DarkScience - www.darkscience.com

October 30th, 2004, 02:33 AM	#147
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	More clips added These are totally nothing interesting to watch since they are shot for comparing the frames. So, please don't blame me for shooting something not fun to watch:). It was quite challenging because of the situation on this location at this time of the day. But I think it might give you good ideas of how this cam takes shots like these clips under a terrible circumstances. These clips are shot in front of my company. I named these files HDV frame comparison footage, abbreviated as "HDVfcmprsn". These are shot at around 16:30pm, it was getting dark. No gain added:), F1.7, 1/60, no cinematone even the ones with cinemaframe. HDVfcmprsn24f.m2t Cinematone off HDVfcmprsn30f.m2t Cinematone off HDVfcmprsn60i.m2t Just in case you can't find the directory... Here! <Thanx to Heath for reminding me, I keep on forget what it was> Don't enjoy but compare them well!! :)

October 30th, 2004, 07:41 AM	#148
Donal Briard Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 43	Re: More clips added Ok, analysis: 1-60i mode shows the most interlacing artifacts (a lot) 2-Cine24 loses a lot of resolving power 3-While 60i produce the sharpest image, Cine30 is #2. I made screen captures uncompressed of all three clips and used the B.G. post at left as a guide, I blew it up 300% in Photoshop. It is pretty clear cut. That means this camera's Cine30 is NOT from a real progressive CCD as some have said and that it just de-interlaces the footage a la Magic Bullet in camera. Cine24 loses a loy of details and is choppy. Garbage look filter.

October 29th, 2004, 02:22 PM	#136
Scott Anderson Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 327	From the article: "We had 3000 euro, a half-full tank and were nonsmokers. The development of DRAKE 1 could begin..." I suspect this is the babelfish translation of a Blues Brothers reference. Anyway, it looks as if Markus and company are using medical or industrial CCDs and engineering their own DSP and capturing direct to disk. I wonder how the optical path works? Is it a 3-CCD with prism arrangemet? The article talked about black & white CCDs, but I can't understand the details. I understood the desire for a true 35mm light path to duplicate 35mm depth of field directly onto the CCDs. I truly want to see how the "small problem with fixed pattern noise" has been fixed. This is no "small problem" - it looks like getting much too close to a DLP projector! Not very pleasing. You can also see this problem in the 2nd still that Michael posted. Look at the shirt. For $3000 Euros, this is a very interesting development. Imagine if the the near future if 35mm equal "webcams" were sold that connected directly to a laptop or a firewire hard drive, and had a PL mount, Nikon mount or even c-mount lens on the front. Remember, Dalsa was involved in medical imaging long before they started developing a digital film camera.

October 29th, 2004, 02:37 PM	#137
Scott Anderson Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 327	I also just realized I've just helped pull this thread way off topic. I want to join everyone else in thanking Kaku for posting the clips. Watching these images playing through VLC player on my Apple Cinema Display was awe-inspiring! I've noticed that after downconverting to DV, the images look much more like "live video", but that's probably just a function of a 60i capture with a 60th shutter. If Sony will only offer 24p on the pro model, I have no doubts that this camera will be ready for indie film applications. The level of detail is stunning, and puts any DV camera, even the higher end broadcast cameras to shame. Sony is going to own the under-$50,000 camera market come next April!

October 29th, 2004, 03:08 PM	#138
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	<<<-- Originally posted by Scott Anderson : Sony is going to own the under-$50,000 camera market come next April! -->>> I wouldn't speak so fast. ;)

October 29th, 2004, 08:53 PM	#139
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	Hi Frederic, Your work with LumiereHD is making it possilbe for my files to be available which I thank you. It wasn't possible to provide such without your software. Am I correct that I can't demux FX1 files with version 1.2, or I'm doing something wrong. If there's something I can help you, please let me know.

October 29th, 2004, 09:17 PM	#141
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	Kaku, You are correct. Version 1.2 isn't yet compatible with the Sony devices. Version 1.5 will be fully compatible with all the Sony HDV cameras and decks.

October 29th, 2004, 09:26 PM	#142
Laurence Kingston Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Clermont, FL. Posts: 941	Someone asked a while back in this thread about shooting HD and capturing standard DV widescreen. Here is a link to a post on the Vegas forum where a Sony rep says that you can do this: http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.co...=327630&Page=0

October 29th, 2004, 09:27 PM	#143
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	Jeff, All I can say is "24p help is on the way"...just teasing. It sounds like your wishes will come true sooner than you think, at a more affordable price than you think. HDV is about to become a very competitive field and the ultimate winner is going to be the consumer. If you plan on waiting a few months until you make a purchasing decision, you're in good shape.

October 29th, 2004, 09:40 PM	#145
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	Jeff, 5 months sounds like perfect timing for a sound HDV purchasing decision.

October 30th, 2004, 02:21 AM	#146
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	Frederic, Could you please confirm about the following? Does LumiereHD version 1.2 capture footage from HDR-FX1 at 1080i with no modification in the data?

October 30th, 2004, 08:53 AM	#149
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	Thank you Donal for the analysis. I should have done DV shooting at the same time. I will do that tomorrow and probably replace with these clips (so, there will be three HDV and three DV clips).

October 30th, 2004, 01:04 PM	#150
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	FORGET the 24 cine thing - looks like an effect !!! 30 cine thing is more useable BUT this camera is INTERLACE and that is where this camera SHINES !! 1080i !!!! is excellent ... want 24progressive = look elsewhere ... don't even consider the FAKE 24 on this camera ! if you are getting interlace artifacts at 1080i then you are either watching on a progressive screen and screen size is smaller then 1920x1080 , and /or your processor can't play back the clips at 29.97 ... well actually if you are playing back on WMP the codec that it is using really wasn't designed for the sony HDV compression .. if you have a HDV plug-in that i suggest you see what speed it's playing back the clip ?? you need to set your monitor to 1920x1080 or larger if you want to see 1080i !!!! if the clip will play back at 29.97 you will see very little interlace artifacts on progressive screen ... if your player has to scale the clip smaller then it might be introducing artifacts ???