FX1 on par with Varicam - hands on report inside

Chris Hurd · October 17th, 2004, 01:42 PM

Re: a pro HDV camera with interchangeable lenses, this is in the works, and it will come from JVC. It's a full-size shoulder-mount camera based on the GY-DV7000 design and will cost about $20,000, which is much less than the (in my opinion) best SD camera out today, the Panasonic SDX900.

K. Forman · October 17th, 2004, 01:50 PM

Let me ask you this... What changes would you like to see in the FX1? What is the single feature that gets your attention?

Pete Bauer · October 17th, 2004, 05:01 PM

Just thinking "out loud" here...

We usually think of getting 3rd party lenses for our cameras. Maybe if Canon is going to be slow to market with HDV, we should look the other way 'round? That is, maybe a competitor should produce (or just "threaten" to produce!) an HDV camera body with an XL mount?! (Maybe there are patent issues with this idea, but if 3rd party XL lenses are legal, maybe the reverse is ok, too?)

Assuming that HDV really is a step up, there must be a lot of XL lenses out there by now that would happily sit on a quality HDV body, regardless of who made it.

I figure my 20x and 3x lenses are worth about half of the $6K I've invested in the XL system so it wouldn't bother me one bit to slap a $2-3K Sony/JVC/Pana body on them if HDV really is the winner most of us anticipate it to be.

Parenthetically, I must say that I'm VERY pleased with the 16:9 images the XL2 is giving me...as eager as I've been for HDV, it really will need to be dramatically sharper if it means abandoning my investment into the XL2's unmatched (for "consumer" cams) depth of features. A **slightly** sharper image with a lesser feature set won't do it for me; it'll have to be a slam dunk.

Ah, well. I guess most of us have yet to directly see HDV footage with our own eyes..."Patience, Grasshopper." ;-)

Mark Kubat · October 17th, 2004, 06:26 PM

It certainly is worth thinking about...

It's not an easy one to answer because, actually, the FX1 seems pretty feature rich...

I'd have to say for "convenience" it would have been cool to have XLR on cheapo version a la basic DVX100...

More importantly, I'd offer that what I'd like to see is a cineframe/filmic type mode that really delivers if true 24p is not possible/part of HDV spec... Panasonic has done a nice job of this with their "film-like" frame modes on recent cams like DVC-30 and GS400 - they're both much better than "old" Canon frame mode used to be...

Sony brought out 24p on cheapie 1-CCD consumer level cam this past summer, no? It's not like Sony is anti-24p!

Also, I'd have liked a "better" lens on pro FX1 (Z1?) to justify the higher cost/make you think twice about whether or not to buy pro version.

Having XLR and the ability to watch EVF and LCD at same time, etc. are not enough of a benefit to me to justify spending the extra $$$ on pro - I think the big question-mark right now is really how much more the Z1 is going to be over the consumer - from feature set listed so far, I don't understand how they can justify ~$7,000.00... The posts that claim image quality of consumer FX1 will be exactly the same as pro are the dealbreaker for me and make me go "yeah, alright, really no need to wait for pro" - if that's the case!

Yes, it's great to speculate - dammit, how many more days? And why aren't we getting any reports from Japan by now?

Any hunch how soon Ulead/Adobe/Apple will have capture utility ready to get HDV footage into computer?

Back to Tai Chi....

Joe Carney · October 18th, 2004, 10:36 AM

I have a rptv that cost well under 1500.00 US and 1080i broadcast (when originating from HD source) are stunning. SD interlaced footage that has been uprezed from old analog
source tends to look bad.

As far as the 'film' look? The HD video look has a long future ahead of it. I've been watching concerts, nature shows, travel shows, DIY stuff, racing, hotrod shows... on INHD, INHD2 and discovery HD, and all I can say is wow.

Robert Mann Z. · October 18th, 2004, 10:42 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Mark Kubat : I don't understand how they can justify ~$7,000.00... -->>>

simple they are the ones making a 3ccd hd camera with xlr inputs thats handheld and sd/ntsc/pal switchable

a lot of firsts there...

Chris Hurd · October 18th, 2004, 10:48 AM

Plus, $7,000 will seem like a bargain compared to the forthcoming JVC offering at $20,000. Of course, that one's a full-size shoulder-mount camera with interchangeable lenses and all the pro features. Think GY-DV7000 in HDV.

Mike Gannon · October 18th, 2004, 11:23 AM

The "under $7,000" price tag is not official, based as far as I can tell on what one Sony rep at IBC said (in euros) to someone who posted it on the web. Remember that the mock-up version displayed at NAB last spring came with a "under $5000" estimate from the Sony people there.

Certainly, the confirmed 46 differences we know of in the pro version don't add up to a $3300 upgrade in a value-added sense, especially when third-party products are available to add on the FX1 for considerably less.

I really believe the price of the pro version will be much closer to $5000 than $7000 for two reasons. First, the confirmed differences between the consumer and pro are pretty much the same as the differences in the consumer VX2100 and the pro PD-170. If the same mark up between those two is applied to the HDV offerings, you get about $5k for the pro. Like the PD-170, a wide angle adapter could be included.

Second is marketing. The FX1 seemed to be aimed squarely at the DVX100A from a price point prespective. And with only $3700 to spend, I see very few reasons to choose the DVX over the Sony. At $5000, the pro version will go up against the XL-2. For that comparison, I guess we'll have to wait for some real world tests of both not only in camera but in the edit bay as well.

Alex Raskin · October 18th, 2004, 12:20 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : ... the (in my opinion) best SD camera out today, the Panasonic SDX900. -->>>

Chris, I hate to deviate from the thread, however can't help but ask if you looked at Pana SPX800 (DVCPRO50 4:2:2, $20K list + glass) and Sony PDW-530 XDCAM? And what do you think about them comparing to Pana SDX900 you mentioned?

Once again, so sorry if this is off topic.

Joe Carney · October 19th, 2004, 11:25 AM

>>Plus, $7,000 will seem like a bargain compared to the forthcoming JVC offering at $20,000. Of course, that one's a full-size shoulder-mount camera with interchangeable lenses and all the pro features. Think GY-DV7000 in HDV.
<<

I think there will be a place for both. If JVC uses full size tape and lowers the price a few thousand, it will be very popular. IMHO. The issue will be reliability, which plagues JVCs new cameras.

I'm willing to bet that the camera is released closer to 12K.

Chris Hurd · October 19th, 2004, 11:51 AM

Alex, I know of those cameras, but have no hands-on experience with them. Let's amend my claim about the SDX900 to include it and the SPX800 and the XDCAM as all collectiely being at the top of the hill.

Joe, I agree that the JVC camera would be much more attractive if it used a full-sized cassette.

Chris Ward · October 19th, 2004, 04:05 PM

Next summer I'm planning to shoot a low budget feature. We were thinking seriously about the XL2 but now this new Sony HDV has thrown us for a loop. What I'd like to see is footage from both camcorders, under similar conditions, transferred to 35mm. Any thoughts on which camera would deliver the better image?

Chris Hurd · October 19th, 2004, 04:17 PM

Chris, how easy is it for you to get to Manhattan? I might be able to arrange a hands-on of both cameras for you.

Chris Ward · October 19th, 2004, 04:45 PM

Very easy. Are you in the New York this week? Thanks for the offer! Do you still have my cell number?

October 17th, 2004, 01:42 PM	#31
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Re: a pro HDV camera with interchangeable lenses, this is in the works, and it will come from JVC. It's a full-size shoulder-mount camera based on the GY-DV7000 design and will cost about $20,000, which is much less than the (in my opinion) best SD camera out today, the Panasonic SDX900. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

October 17th, 2004, 01:50 PM	#32
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	Let me ask you this... What changes would you like to see in the FX1? What is the single feature that gets your attention? __________________ www.SmokeWagonLeather.us

October 17th, 2004, 05:01 PM	#33
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Just thinking "out loud" here... We usually think of getting 3rd party lenses for our cameras. Maybe if Canon is going to be slow to market with HDV, we should look the other way 'round? That is, maybe a competitor should produce (or just "threaten" to produce!) an HDV camera body with an XL mount?! (Maybe there are patent issues with this idea, but if 3rd party XL lenses are legal, maybe the reverse is ok, too?) Assuming that HDV really is a step up, there must be a lot of XL lenses out there by now that would happily sit on a quality HDV body, regardless of who made it. I figure my 20x and 3x lenses are worth about half of the $6K I've invested in the XL system so it wouldn't bother me one bit to slap a $2-3K Sony/JVC/Pana body on them if HDV really is the winner most of us anticipate it to be. Parenthetically, I must say that I'm VERY pleased with the 16:9 images the XL2 is giving me...as eager as I've been for HDV, it really will need to be dramatically sharper if it means abandoning my investment into the XL2's unmatched (for "consumer" cams) depth of features. A slightly sharper image with a lesser feature set won't do it for me; it'll have to be a slam dunk. Ah, well. I guess most of us have yet to directly see HDV footage with our own eyes..."Patience, Grasshopper." ;-) __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

October 17th, 2004, 06:26 PM	#34
Mark Kubat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 375	Keith, good question It certainly is worth thinking about... It's not an easy one to answer because, actually, the FX1 seems pretty feature rich... I'd have to say for "convenience" it would have been cool to have XLR on cheapo version a la basic DVX100... More importantly, I'd offer that what I'd like to see is a cineframe/filmic type mode that really delivers if true 24p is not possible/part of HDV spec... Panasonic has done a nice job of this with their "film-like" frame modes on recent cams like DVC-30 and GS400 - they're both much better than "old" Canon frame mode used to be... Sony brought out 24p on cheapie 1-CCD consumer level cam this past summer, no? It's not like Sony is anti-24p! Also, I'd have liked a "better" lens on pro FX1 (Z1?) to justify the higher cost/make you think twice about whether or not to buy pro version. Having XLR and the ability to watch EVF and LCD at same time, etc. are not enough of a benefit to me to justify spending the extra $$$ on pro - I think the big question-mark right now is really how much more the Z1 is going to be over the consumer - from feature set listed so far, I don't understand how they can justify ~$7,000.00... The posts that claim image quality of consumer FX1 will be exactly the same as pro are the dealbreaker for me and make me go "yeah, alright, really no need to wait for pro" - if that's the case! Yes, it's great to speculate - dammit, how many more days? And why aren't we getting any reports from Japan by now? Any hunch how soon Ulead/Adobe/Apple will have capture utility ready to get HDV footage into computer? Back to Tai Chi....

October 18th, 2004, 10:42 AM	#36
Robert Mann Z. Skyonic New York Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 614	Re: Keith, good question <<<-- Originally posted by Mark Kubat : I don't understand how they can justify ~$7,000.00... -->>> simple they are the ones making a 3ccd hd camera with xlr inputs thats handheld and sd/ntsc/pal switchable a lot of firsts there...

October 18th, 2004, 10:36 AM	#35
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	I have a rptv that cost well under 1500.00 US and 1080i broadcast (when originating from HD source) are stunning. SD interlaced footage that has been uprezed from old analog source tends to look bad. As far as the 'film' look? The HD video look has a long future ahead of it. I've been watching concerts, nature shows, travel shows, DIY stuff, racing, hotrod shows... on INHD, INHD2 and discovery HD, and all I can say is wow.

October 18th, 2004, 10:48 AM	#37
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Plus, $7,000 will seem like a bargain compared to the forthcoming JVC offering at $20,000. Of course, that one's a full-size shoulder-mount camera with interchangeable lenses and all the pro features. Think GY-DV7000 in HDV. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

October 18th, 2004, 11:23 AM	#38
Mike Gannon Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 48	The "under $7,000" price tag is not official, based as far as I can tell on what one Sony rep at IBC said (in euros) to someone who posted it on the web. Remember that the mock-up version displayed at NAB last spring came with a "under $5000" estimate from the Sony people there. Certainly, the confirmed 46 differences we know of in the pro version don't add up to a $3300 upgrade in a value-added sense, especially when third-party products are available to add on the FX1 for considerably less. I really believe the price of the pro version will be much closer to $5000 than $7000 for two reasons. First, the confirmed differences between the consumer and pro are pretty much the same as the differences in the consumer VX2100 and the pro PD-170. If the same mark up between those two is applied to the HDV offerings, you get about $5k for the pro. Like the PD-170, a wide angle adapter could be included. Second is marketing. The FX1 seemed to be aimed squarely at the DVX100A from a price point prespective. And with only $3700 to spend, I see very few reasons to choose the DVX over the Sony. At $5000, the pro version will go up against the XL-2. For that comparison, I guess we'll have to wait for some real world tests of both not only in camera but in the edit bay as well.

October 18th, 2004, 12:20 PM	#39
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : ... the (in my opinion) best SD camera out today, the Panasonic SDX900. -->>> Chris, I hate to deviate from the thread, however can't help but ask if you looked at Pana SPX800 (DVCPRO50 4:2:2, $20K list + glass) and Sony PDW-530 XDCAM? And what do you think about them comparing to Pana SDX900 you mentioned? Once again, so sorry if this is off topic.

October 19th, 2004, 11:25 AM	#40
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	>>Plus, $7,000 will seem like a bargain compared to the forthcoming JVC offering at $20,000. Of course, that one's a full-size shoulder-mount camera with interchangeable lenses and all the pro features. Think GY-DV7000 in HDV. << I think there will be a place for both. If JVC uses full size tape and lowers the price a few thousand, it will be very popular. IMHO. The issue will be reliability, which plagues JVCs new cameras. I'm willing to bet that the camera is released closer to 12K.

October 19th, 2004, 11:51 AM	#41
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Alex, I know of those cameras, but have no hands-on experience with them. Let's amend my claim about the SDX900 to include it and the SPX800 and the XDCAM as all collectiely being at the top of the hill. Joe, I agree that the JVC camera would be much more attractive if it used a full-sized cassette. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

October 19th, 2004, 04:05 PM	#42
Chris Ward Contributor Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: New England Posts: 68	film out Next summer I'm planning to shoot a low budget feature. We were thinking seriously about the XL2 but now this new Sony HDV has thrown us for a loop. What I'd like to see is footage from both camcorders, under similar conditions, transferred to 35mm. Any thoughts on which camera would deliver the better image?

October 19th, 2004, 04:17 PM	#43
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Chris, how easy is it for you to get to Manhattan? I might be able to arrange a hands-on of both cameras for you. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

October 19th, 2004, 04:45 PM	#44
Chris Ward Contributor Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: New England Posts: 68	Very easy. Are you in the New York this week? Thanks for the offer! Do you still have my cell number?