Buying the FX1 then what

Michael Struthers · September 28th, 2004, 02:35 PM

Mark Kubat must be working for Panasonic *L*

You can shoot with the FX-1, edit in VV (and very shortly FCP, Avid and everything else) save it out to HD tape and uprez to whatever you want at a production facility, or make a DVD at your house that will undoubtedly look better than what is currently available.

What's not to like?

Heath McKnight · September 28th, 2004, 05:59 PM

Greg,

720p and 1080i are HD/HDV, 480i is DV/SD and 480p is also DV/SD.

heath

Steve Crisdale · September 28th, 2004, 07:16 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Greg Harris : what does downconverting it do? is it still HD. why would you downconvert it anyway? -->>>

I'll assume the questions you've asked are directed at enlightening a total novice.

Downconverting from HDV resolution to DVD resolution allows for the creation of 'standard' DVD player compliant VOB files, without another recompression render occuring; thus keeping compression artifacts to a minimum.

At the risk of repeating many previous replies regarding DVD distribution of edited HD to the masses..... Downrezed HDV to DVD resolution video is not 'still HD'. Until HD, or WMV9 capable DVD players are available to the public, there are currently very few means available to distribute true HD video.

Until those HD capable players are available (not too far off...) the creation of standard player compatible DVDs from downconverted HDV provides a product; in the general consensus, that is visually more detailed than those created from an SD resolution camcorder.

Mike Gannon · September 28th, 2004, 07:56 PM

It's still HD, but downconverted to DVD. Much the same way a $50 million dollar movie is still 35mm film, downcoverted to DVD.

Or, it's not HD, because it's been dc'd to DVD. Much the same way that big-budget film is no longer film because it's been dc'd to DVD.

Some of the quality aspects will be lost in the transfer to a lessor format, but the better the quality going in, the better the quality coming out.

How much quality the 1080i format will give you over DV is in question before we get our hands on the camera and, more importantly, play around with it in post. The compression of the information is huge, and many questions have been raised as to how this type of file is going to react to effects, color correction, etc.

My guess is the NLE providers are betting that Sony is right - HDV is the future - but whether they get it figured out next month or next year to really make HDV a no-brainer upgrade from DV is still in question.

The only thing I want to see is how the FX1, downconverted or shot in SD mode, compares to the XL-2 and DVX. If the quality is better, and it may be, why would you choose either of the other two?

Greg Harris · September 29th, 2004, 05:59 AM

yeah but another huge point of mine is why by this GREAT cam if you want to downconverrt anything, Its all about the HD DVDs. If i wanted to put out regular dvds i'll just continue to shoot with my DVX100. I hope HD DVD comes out fast and not pricey

Mike Gannon · September 29th, 2004, 06:33 AM

OK, that's fine. Just like the Beta/VHS formats for 1/2" tape twenty years ago, there are two competing formats for HD DVD. One is Sony's Blue Ray. The other is...HD-DVD. Like Beta vs. VHS, the Sony is better (quantitatively), but more expensive. Both should be available next year assuming Hollywood signs off on piracy issues.

But that doesn't mean everyone will have one. It will take a period of years for many households to add this new technology to thier home. Remember that it will only work (in HD) if they have a HDTV set - something that hasn't exactly flown off shelves considering the % of households owning one and the several years they have been available.

Still, you can webcast using the new HD WM format - or distribute to HD content providers by transfering to HDCAM or DVCPROHD, but those decks are kinda pricy if you're looking to buy.

In your case, if I owned a DVX, especially the 100A version, I would be content to wait and see where this format goes over the next year or so. Let the NLEs iron out the codec issues. Let Panasonic and JVC and Canon counter Sony's move. And put some new camera money into lighting and audio to get the most out of the DVX and your next camera as well.

Heath McKnight · September 29th, 2004, 08:04 AM

Greg,

A simple answer is that if you can wait for HD DVDs, then you should wait to buy an HDV camera.

heath

Bill Ravens · September 29th, 2004, 08:16 AM

Don't hold your breath. The DVD-HD wars are just beginning to gear up in the Orient. This report summarizes the situation:

"While the large majority of the world is happy with DVD and sitting back and watching for a final decision for the next-gen format (there are two players: HD DVD and Blu-Ray - just as there were two players for today's digital video discs, eventually the two teams got together and created a single format now known as DVD), the video disc format battles are much more real in China and Taiwan. China's EVD, which so far didn't have much success, is now being attacked by HVD (High-definition Versatile Disc), a high def video disc format. HVD players are twice as expensive as EVD players (which in turn is 2.5 times as expensive as a DVD player), and about 10 new movies are released on HVD every week. One of the format's main promoters, Beijing K-City expects to shop 100'000 players in 94."

Greg Harris · September 29th, 2004, 10:49 AM

so prettty much the Sony FX1 is to advanced for making movies with right now? How much do you guys expect the Blue ray or dvd burners to be priced at?? What will be the point to get this GREAT camera if we cant put them on HD DVD yet? Thats my point of this thread..

Joe Carney · September 29th, 2004, 11:48 AM

>>Also, there is nothing wrong with shooting HDV and down-converting to SD and DV. People shoot on film and the widest audience watches it in SD/DV.
<<
All of Sony's superbit DVD titles are mastered from HD video at maximum bit rate. HDV though is not maximum bitrate for HD. Still should make for superior looking interlaced DVDs.

Bill Ravens · September 29th, 2004, 12:37 PM

"Now it's not only the DVD Forum: NEC, Sanyo, Toshiba and Memory-Tech have founded a group to promote HD DVD called the HD DVD Promotion Group. The organization is currently in preparatory status and will be officially founded in spring 2005, after which it'll be open for other members to join. And while there already are BluRay recorders on sale (at least in Japan), HD DVD recorders are still missing, but now NEC has announced an integrated chipset that would permit 2x HD DVD Recording / Reading. The plan is to have the first recorders out some time in 2005 so they seem to be on track.."

Rob Lohman · September 30th, 2004, 02:22 AM

Most people seem to buy an HD camera these days to:

1) broadcast in HD

2) have their movie in HD for if it ever (whenever that happens) needs to blown up to film

In theory your regular DVD's should be better too, but I doubt
the FX1 can beat the XL2 in a downconversion to DVD...

Greg Harris · September 30th, 2004, 06:02 AM

Yeah i hate broadcast, and film is soo expensive for a kid. But I am getting this camera if HD dvd burners come out at a good price..

Mike Gannon · September 30th, 2004, 06:16 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : In theory your regular DVD's should be better too, but I doubt
the FX1 can beat the XL2 in a downconversion to DVD... -->>>

That is the real question I have about the FX1. I am not all that excited by the HDV format for going to HD, rather the best camera >$5000 to ultimately produce the highest quality SD images.

Can you explain your reasons behind saying the XL-2 native image will beat the FX1 downconverted? I was ready to pounce on the XL-2 prior to this camera being announced.

Rob Lohman · September 30th, 2004, 07:11 AM

I didn't say the XL2 beats the FX1 on quality (SD). I said I'm sure
the FX1 isn't better. They are probably equal in quality if Sony
has done there work. All I know is that the XL2 delivers some
stunning pictures that look like HD on a pro monitor. So it is better
than most camera's in SD resolution terms and therefore I doubt
the FX1 would be even better in a DVD downsample conversion.

They are probably around the same in resolution terms etc. Then
again, we'd have to wait and see what the consumer shot HDV
footage with this camera will look like...

September 28th, 2004, 02:35 PM	#31
Michael Struthers Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: SF, Ca Posts: 421	Mark Kubat must be working for Panasonic L You can shoot with the FX-1, edit in VV (and very shortly FCP, Avid and everything else) save it out to HD tape and uprez to whatever you want at a production facility, or make a DVD at your house that will undoubtedly look better than what is currently available. What's not to like? __________________ Michael Struthers www.buzzdigital.com

September 28th, 2004, 05:59 PM	#32
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Greg, 720p and 1080i are HD/HDV, 480i is DV/SD and 480p is also DV/SD. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

September 29th, 2004, 08:04 AM	#37
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Greg, A simple answer is that if you can wait for HD DVDs, then you should wait to buy an HDV camera. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

September 29th, 2004, 12:37 PM	#41
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	...and the beat goes on.... "Now it's not only the DVD Forum: NEC, Sanyo, Toshiba and Memory-Tech have founded a group to promote HD DVD called the HD DVD Promotion Group. The organization is currently in preparatory status and will be officially founded in spring 2005, after which it'll be open for other members to join. And while there already are BluRay recorders on sale (at least in Japan), HD DVD recorders are still missing, but now NEC has announced an integrated chipset that would permit 2x HD DVD Recording / Reading. The plan is to have the first recorders out some time in 2005 so they seem to be on track.."

September 30th, 2004, 02:22 AM	#42
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Most people seem to buy an HD camera these days to: 1) broadcast in HD 2) have their movie in HD for if it ever (whenever that happens) needs to blown up to film In theory your regular DVD's should be better too, but I doubt the FX1 can beat the XL2 in a downconversion to DVD... __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 28th, 2004, 07:16 PM	#33
Steve Crisdale Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Katoomba NSW Australia Posts: 635	<<<-- Originally posted by Greg Harris : what does downconverting it do? is it still HD. why would you downconvert it anyway? -->>> I'll assume the questions you've asked are directed at enlightening a total novice. Downconverting from HDV resolution to DVD resolution allows for the creation of 'standard' DVD player compliant VOB files, without another recompression render occuring; thus keeping compression artifacts to a minimum. At the risk of repeating many previous replies regarding DVD distribution of edited HD to the masses..... Downrezed HDV to DVD resolution video is not 'still HD'. Until HD, or WMV9 capable DVD players are available to the public, there are currently very few means available to distribute true HD video. Until those HD capable players are available (not too far off...) the creation of standard player compatible DVDs from downconverted HDV provides a product; in the general consensus, that is visually more detailed than those created from an SD resolution camcorder.

September 28th, 2004, 07:56 PM	#34
Mike Gannon Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 48	It's still HD, but downconverted to DVD. Much the same way a $50 million dollar movie is still 35mm film, downcoverted to DVD. Or, it's not HD, because it's been dc'd to DVD. Much the same way that big-budget film is no longer film because it's been dc'd to DVD. Some of the quality aspects will be lost in the transfer to a lessor format, but the better the quality going in, the better the quality coming out. How much quality the 1080i format will give you over DV is in question before we get our hands on the camera and, more importantly, play around with it in post. The compression of the information is huge, and many questions have been raised as to how this type of file is going to react to effects, color correction, etc. My guess is the NLE providers are betting that Sony is right - HDV is the future - but whether they get it figured out next month or next year to really make HDV a no-brainer upgrade from DV is still in question. The only thing I want to see is how the FX1, downconverted or shot in SD mode, compares to the XL-2 and DVX. If the quality is better, and it may be, why would you choose either of the other two?

September 29th, 2004, 05:59 AM	#35
Greg Harris Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Fairfax, VA Posts: 356	yeah but another huge point of mine is why by this GREAT cam if you want to downconverrt anything, Its all about the HD DVDs. If i wanted to put out regular dvds i'll just continue to shoot with my DVX100. I hope HD DVD comes out fast and not pricey

September 29th, 2004, 06:33 AM	#36
Mike Gannon Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 48	OK, that's fine. Just like the Beta/VHS formats for 1/2" tape twenty years ago, there are two competing formats for HD DVD. One is Sony's Blue Ray. The other is...HD-DVD. Like Beta vs. VHS, the Sony is better (quantitatively), but more expensive. Both should be available next year assuming Hollywood signs off on piracy issues. But that doesn't mean everyone will have one. It will take a period of years for many households to add this new technology to thier home. Remember that it will only work (in HD) if they have a HDTV set - something that hasn't exactly flown off shelves considering the % of households owning one and the several years they have been available. Still, you can webcast using the new HD WM format - or distribute to HD content providers by transfering to HDCAM or DVCPROHD, but those decks are kinda pricy if you're looking to buy. In your case, if I owned a DVX, especially the 100A version, I would be content to wait and see where this format goes over the next year or so. Let the NLEs iron out the codec issues. Let Panasonic and JVC and Canon counter Sony's move. And put some new camera money into lighting and audio to get the most out of the DVX and your next camera as well.

September 29th, 2004, 08:16 AM	#38
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Don't hold your breath. The DVD-HD wars are just beginning to gear up in the Orient. This report summarizes the situation: "While the large majority of the world is happy with DVD and sitting back and watching for a final decision for the next-gen format (there are two players: HD DVD and Blu-Ray - just as there were two players for today's digital video discs, eventually the two teams got together and created a single format now known as DVD), the video disc format battles are much more real in China and Taiwan. China's EVD, which so far didn't have much success, is now being attacked by HVD (High-definition Versatile Disc), a high def video disc format. HVD players are twice as expensive as EVD players (which in turn is 2.5 times as expensive as a DVD player), and about 10 new movies are released on HVD every week. One of the format's main promoters, Beijing K-City expects to shop 100'000 players in 94."

September 29th, 2004, 10:49 AM	#39
Greg Harris Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Fairfax, VA Posts: 356	so prettty much the Sony FX1 is to advanced for making movies with right now? How much do you guys expect the Blue ray or dvd burners to be priced at?? What will be the point to get this GREAT camera if we cant put them on HD DVD yet? Thats my point of this thread..

September 29th, 2004, 11:48 AM	#40
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	>>Also, there is nothing wrong with shooting HDV and down-converting to SD and DV. People shoot on film and the widest audience watches it in SD/DV. << All of Sony's superbit DVD titles are mastered from HD video at maximum bit rate. HDV though is not maximum bitrate for HD. Still should make for superior looking interlaced DVDs.

September 30th, 2004, 06:02 AM	#43
Greg Harris Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Fairfax, VA Posts: 356	Yeah i hate broadcast, and film is soo expensive for a kid. But I am getting this camera if HD dvd burners come out at a good price..

September 30th, 2004, 06:16 AM	#44
Mike Gannon Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 48	<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : In theory your regular DVD's should be better too, but I doubt the FX1 can beat the XL2 in a downconversion to DVD... -->>> That is the real question I have about the FX1. I am not all that excited by the HDV format for going to HD, rather the best camera >$5000 to ultimately produce the highest quality SD images. Can you explain your reasons behind saying the XL-2 native image will beat the FX1 downconverted? I was ready to pounce on the XL-2 prior to this camera being announced.

September 30th, 2004, 07:11 AM	#45
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	I didn't say the XL2 beats the FX1 on quality (SD). I said I'm sure the FX1 isn't better. They are probably equal in quality if Sony has done there work. All I know is that the XL2 delivers some stunning pictures that look like HD on a pro monitor. So it is better than most camera's in SD resolution terms and therefore I doubt the FX1 would be even better in a DVD downsample conversion. They are probably around the same in resolution terms etc. Then again, we'd have to wait and see what the consumer shot HDV footage with this camera will look like... __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors