SONY HDV HDR-FX1 will be out Oct. 15th

Anhar Miah · September 8th, 2004, 09:03 AM

October 15th ARRRRR!!....

I cant wait that long ! jus jokin :)
I really hope there is a pro verson, although theres no news on this matter so far.

But the most important for me and others in PAL-land is whether there will be a PAL version.

i really hope (Sony pay attentio if your listening) that they dont pull another JVC PD1 type shamble.

HD for the Indie just got that little bit closer.

Peter Jefferson · September 9th, 2004, 08:44 AM

"they mention all the editing systems to support their new cam...EXCEPT their own Sony Vegas? I though Vegas 5 already supported HDV? Why wouldn't it be on their list?"

Sony already did a press realease RE: HD when they release V5...

Vegas has no issues with HD format files.. basically this cam (as well as the new JVC ) will be recording HD in STD DV, not mpg2, as mpg2 will be encoded during the render stage of the edit..not the recording stage ... id hate to think how long a render will take..

Chosei Funahara · September 9th, 2004, 11:46 AM

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20040907/sony1.htm

Scott Anderson · September 9th, 2004, 11:50 AM

Peter, I don't know what you're referring to when you say this cam will record in STD DV? This cam will record in the HDV spec, which is mpeg2 compressed all the way. It's no surprise that Vegas would support this camera, as it already support the JVC HDV camera. What I'm more interested in is the 25 Mb/s as opposed to the JVC 19Mb/s. Does the HDV spec allow for even higher bitrates, such as the 50Mb/s varieties like DVCPro?

Could a future HDV camera use the existing 50Mb/s or even 100Mb/s on a DV (full or mini) size tape? It seems that at those bitrates, the mpeg2 compression that so many people are complaining about would become a moot point.

Also, what is this "psuedo 24p" mode? How exactly does that work? What are the possible issues about conversion from 1080 60i to 24p film, for us indie guys?

*EDIT: sorry, I didn't realise the bulk of the discussion had moved to the JVC thread. MODS: How about giving this camera it's own category next to the JVC???

Mark Kubat · September 9th, 2004, 05:43 PM

Did it happen in NY or wherever? The usual suspects are quiet - has anyone seen this cam in person?

Wow, just shipped back my order of 6 XL2's - left the boxes unopened so I hope I get full credit.

Tsk. tsk. If only Canon R&D got their fingers out of their butt-holes long enough and took the extra 5 minutes of thinking and effort to put out the HD XL2 everyone wanted... Well, at least we have the 2.5 inch flip out LCD - and XLR!

big sarcastic grin here, folks. Please don't flame.

Daymon Hoffman · September 9th, 2004, 06:03 PM

LMAO - Love it!!

/me wants to see mark's face when next week Canon do there suprise announcement of there 720p HDV cam. :P

Boyd Ostroff · September 9th, 2004, 06:14 PM

Neil Fisher posted an interesting link in another thread that is now locked

SonyStyle Canada's online store now lists the HDRFX1 at $4999.00, but it indicates "out of stock" and doesn't accept orders. I can't find a corresponding listing at the US SonyStyle web store.

Do you think that price is $4999 $CDN? What would that be in $ USD? Or is it a $ USD price. meaning the camera is going to be more expensive than we thought?

Mark Kubat · September 9th, 2004, 06:25 PM

Hi Boyd - it's Cdn. It's inline with $3700 US price quoted in the initial reports.

Okay, so what happened on Sept. 8? Did Canon crash the party and kidnap everyone who realized this new FX1 is a G*O*D*S*E*N*D and was going to suggest, ahem ahem, that HDV is the SECOND COMING ...

Steve McDonald · September 9th, 2004, 10:41 PM

Even though they're both called "HDV", 720P and 1080I are two different formats.
Obviously, the M-PEG2 compression takes place in the camcorder, before recording, or it wouldn't be possible to squeeze an hour of high-definition video onto a mini-DV tape.

I've said it a couple of times before: DV was first conceived as a mini high-definition format. The SD format with DV, was an afterthought, to get some commercial use from it, years before high-definition was possible to implement.

The original DV-HD format spec called for 4 times the bit-rate of DV-SD. This was enabled in the specifications by doubling the tape and writing speeds (18,000 head rpm) and raising the recording carrier frequency from 13.5 MHz to 23 MHz. It was intended to have 100mbps. Obviously, this would have produced a better quality of high-definition video, than the heavily compressed HDV we now have. The
logistical problems of having an 18,000 rpm head drum in a lower-cost VTR, is another matter to consider.

Maybe they will use the original 100mbps DV-HD specification some day, even though it would give only 30 min. recording time on a mini-DV cassette. However, I believe that compatibility with the current type of DVD and PVR high-definition recording and the D-VHS HD tape format, is part of the reason that 19 to 25mbps HDV is being used, instead of DV-HD. The CoDec for all these M-PEG2 formats makes their outputs mutually recordable without conversion.

Perhaps, when they put blue laser/double layer DVD recording into use for high-definition, there will be an interest and feasibility for reviving
100mbps DV-HD for semipro and even consumer use.

Steve McDonald

Mike Hanlon · September 10th, 2004, 12:47 PM

There is a question as to if the FX1 also records in DV. According to camcorderinfo.com, it does:

"Like the JVC, the HDR-FX1 is capable of recording a standard DV signal as well as an HDV signal."

Go back to the fourth post in this thread for the URL.

Boyd Ostroff · September 10th, 2004, 03:26 PM

The HDR-FX1 will play back and record 4:3 DV and 16:9 DV.

Christopher C. Murphy · September 10th, 2004, 04:20 PM

Here's a good question! I have some DVCAM (smaller ones) tapes from a PD-150 that I need to play back. I wonder if this camera will play them? If so, it's like getting a DVCAM deck for playback too! :) :)

Murph

Steve McDonald · September 10th, 2004, 08:53 PM

If the FX1 includes DVCam playback, this would be in keeping with all the other Sony DV models of recent years. I'd be surprised if it didn't have this feature.
But, don't assume anything for sure. Sometimes, manufacturers discontinue and actively discourage the use of older formats, so that new formats will have a more open field for gaining popularity.

Sony gave the ax to ED-Beta at the same time they introduced the lower-cost PVD and UVD BetaCam SP series. U-Matic SP and the pro series of Hi-8 was taken out of production at about the same time as DV and DVCam were introduced. And so on, with other formats and companies. If support for DVCam was limited, wouldn't this help jump-start the need for new pro HDV models? Rather than allowing customers to gradually recognize the advantages of acquiring new and advanced formats, the manufacturers like to give them a strong nudge in that direction.

Steve McDonald

Steve McDonald

Joe Carney · September 11th, 2004, 03:34 PM

steve is right about dv100 which fits well within the i.link spec used today (400mbs). It's too bad they didn't follow through with this. I am no fan of HDV mpeg2 editing. I was looking forward to 1280x720p 8bit 4:2:2 content.

As far as Vegas, it supports HDV already. has for awhile. It's just another codec. Shouldn't be too hard for any NLE to add support.

Personally, I think PAL 16x9 progressive is a pretty good alternative. And a better editing format. But thats just my humble opinion.

Still, 3 chip 1080i is gonna be great for live action material, weddings, sports.....soap operas.

September 8th, 2004, 09:03 AM	#46
Anhar Miah Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: United Kindom, England Posts: 290	OCTOBER October 15th ARRRRR!!.... I cant wait that long ! jus jokin :) I really hope there is a pro verson, although theres no news on this matter so far. But the most important for me and others in PAL-land is whether there will be a PAL version. i really hope (Sony pay attentio if your listening) that they dont pull another JVC PD1 type shamble. HD for the Indie just got that little bit closer.

September 9th, 2004, 11:46 AM	#48
Chosei Funahara Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: N.Y.C. USA / Kobe, JAPAN / Posts: 49	AV watch Japanese article http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20040907/sony1.htm

September 9th, 2004, 05:43 PM	#50
Mark Kubat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 375	any updates from so-called Sept 8 press conference? Did it happen in NY or wherever? The usual suspects are quiet - has anyone seen this cam in person? Wow, just shipped back my order of 6 XL2's - left the boxes unopened so I hope I get full credit. Tsk. tsk. If only Canon R&D got their fingers out of their butt-holes long enough and took the extra 5 minutes of thinking and effort to put out the HD XL2 everyone wanted... Well, at least we have the 2.5 inch flip out LCD - and XLR! big sarcastic grin here, folks. Please don't flame.

September 9th, 2004, 06:03 PM	#51
Daymon Hoffman Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 267	LMAO - Love it!! /me wants to see mark's face when next week Canon do there suprise announcement of there 720p HDV cam. :P __________________ Welcome... to the real world!

September 9th, 2004, 06:25 PM	#53
Mark Kubat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 375	It's Canadian... we converted $3750 = $4,999.99 Cdn. give or take Hi Boyd - it's Cdn. It's inline with $3700 US price quoted in the initial reports. Okay, so what happened on Sept. 8? Did Canon crash the party and kidnap everyone who realized this new FX1 is a GODSEND and was going to suggest, ahem ahem, that HDV is the SECOND COMING ...

September 9th, 2004, 08:44 AM	#47
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	"they mention all the editing systems to support their new cam...EXCEPT their own Sony Vegas? I though Vegas 5 already supported HDV? Why wouldn't it be on their list?" Sony already did a press realease RE: HD when they release V5... Vegas has no issues with HD format files.. basically this cam (as well as the new JVC ) will be recording HD in STD DV, not mpg2, as mpg2 will be encoded during the render stage of the edit..not the recording stage ... id hate to think how long a render will take..

September 9th, 2004, 11:50 AM	#49
Scott Anderson Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 327	Peter, I don't know what you're referring to when you say this cam will record in STD DV? This cam will record in the HDV spec, which is mpeg2 compressed all the way. It's no surprise that Vegas would support this camera, as it already support the JVC HDV camera. What I'm more interested in is the 25 Mb/s as opposed to the JVC 19Mb/s. Does the HDV spec allow for even higher bitrates, such as the 50Mb/s varieties like DVCPro? Could a future HDV camera use the existing 50Mb/s or even 100Mb/s on a DV (full or mini) size tape? It seems that at those bitrates, the mpeg2 compression that so many people are complaining about would become a moot point. Also, what is this "psuedo 24p" mode? How exactly does that work? What are the possible issues about conversion from 1080 60i to 24p film, for us indie guys? *EDIT: sorry, I didn't realise the bulk of the discussion had moved to the JVC thread. MODS: How about giving this camera it's own category next to the JVC???

September 9th, 2004, 06:14 PM	#52
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	Neil Fisher posted an interesting link in another thread that is now locked SonyStyle Canada's online store now lists the HDRFX1 at $4999.00, but it indicates "out of stock" and doesn't accept orders. I can't find a corresponding listing at the US SonyStyle web store. Do you think that price is $4999 $CDN? What would that be in $ USD? Or is it a $ USD price. meaning the camera is going to be more expensive than we thought?

September 9th, 2004, 10:41 PM	#54
Steve McDonald Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 366	Even though they're both called "HDV", 720P and 1080I are two different formats. Obviously, the M-PEG2 compression takes place in the camcorder, before recording, or it wouldn't be possible to squeeze an hour of high-definition video onto a mini-DV tape. I've said it a couple of times before: DV was first conceived as a mini high-definition format. The SD format with DV, was an afterthought, to get some commercial use from it, years before high-definition was possible to implement. The original DV-HD format spec called for 4 times the bit-rate of DV-SD. This was enabled in the specifications by doubling the tape and writing speeds (18,000 head rpm) and raising the recording carrier frequency from 13.5 MHz to 23 MHz. It was intended to have 100mbps. Obviously, this would have produced a better quality of high-definition video, than the heavily compressed HDV we now have. The logistical problems of having an 18,000 rpm head drum in a lower-cost VTR, is another matter to consider. Maybe they will use the original 100mbps DV-HD specification some day, even though it would give only 30 min. recording time on a mini-DV cassette. However, I believe that compatibility with the current type of DVD and PVR high-definition recording and the D-VHS HD tape format, is part of the reason that 19 to 25mbps HDV is being used, instead of DV-HD. The CoDec for all these M-PEG2 formats makes their outputs mutually recordable without conversion. Perhaps, when they put blue laser/double layer DVD recording into use for high-definition, there will be an interest and feasibility for reviving 100mbps DV-HD for semipro and even consumer use. Steve McDonald

September 10th, 2004, 12:47 PM	#55
Mike Hanlon Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 180	There is a question as to if the FX1 also records in DV. According to camcorderinfo.com, it does: "Like the JVC, the HDR-FX1 is capable of recording a standard DV signal as well as an HDV signal." Go back to the fourth post in this thread for the URL. __________________ VM Productions

September 10th, 2004, 03:26 PM	#56
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	The HDR-FX1 will play back and record 4:3 DV and 16:9 DV.

September 10th, 2004, 04:20 PM	#57
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Here's a good question! I have some DVCAM (smaller ones) tapes from a PD-150 that I need to play back. I wonder if this camera will play them? If so, it's like getting a DVCAM deck for playback too! :) :) Murph __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

September 10th, 2004, 08:53 PM	#58
Steve McDonald Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 366	If the FX1 includes DVCam playback, this would be in keeping with all the other Sony DV models of recent years. I'd be surprised if it didn't have this feature. But, don't assume anything for sure. Sometimes, manufacturers discontinue and actively discourage the use of older formats, so that new formats will have a more open field for gaining popularity. Sony gave the ax to ED-Beta at the same time they introduced the lower-cost PVD and UVD BetaCam SP series. U-Matic SP and the pro series of Hi-8 was taken out of production at about the same time as DV and DVCam were introduced. And so on, with other formats and companies. If support for DVCam was limited, wouldn't this help jump-start the need for new pro HDV models? Rather than allowing customers to gradually recognize the advantages of acquiring new and advanced formats, the manufacturers like to give them a strong nudge in that direction. Steve McDonald Steve McDonald

September 11th, 2004, 03:34 PM	#59
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	steve is right about dv100 which fits well within the i.link spec used today (400mbs). It's too bad they didn't follow through with this. I am no fan of HDV mpeg2 editing. I was looking forward to 1280x720p 8bit 4:2:2 content. As far as Vegas, it supports HDV already. has for awhile. It's just another codec. Shouldn't be too hard for any NLE to add support. Personally, I think PAL 16x9 progressive is a pretty good alternative. And a better editing format. But thats just my humble opinion. Still, 3 chip 1080i is gonna be great for live action material, weddings, sports.....soap operas.