Thinking outside the box

Chris Coulson · October 9th, 2008, 02:57 AM

Hi,

I'm filming a live stage event at the end of october with an FX1, and I can only locate at the back. I don't have exact measurements yet, but I'm concerned that my zoom isn't going to be enough to do a closeup on someone's face.

However, I'm not actually fillming it as such either, My FX1 is just giving a S-video feed to a vision mixer with 3 other cameras.

Now here's the *possibly?* clever bit. I'm outputting SD, but the camera is HD, so that gives me either 2x or 4x? digital zoom without any loss of pixels?

or something like that?

I'm not exactly sure even if the FX1 does digital zoom, but I just had this revelation, and feeling quite smug. Now I'll go and look and see if it can actually do Digital zoom!

Any other ideas? Its a one off charity event, so spending £400UKP on a 2x lens is out of the question. If there's one for £1-200UKP maybe, but I can't find one.

Any ideas? Bueller? :-)

Tony Neal · October 9th, 2008, 03:51 AM

No, the FX1 doesn't have digital zoom.

Trying to do closeups from the back means maximum zoom and reduced maximum aperture. The bottom line is that even with reasonable stage lighting the FX1 will struggle to give a well exposed steady closup - its only a 12x zoom after all. By the time its scaled down to SD it may not look too good.

Best to lock off your FX1 at the back and use it for a fallback wide shot of the stage and bring your other 2 cams halfway down the auditorium for the closeups. Being off-centre won't matter for closups and medium shots and you get more interesting angles and lighting than shooting head-on. You'll also be able pan to the audience and see some faces if thats part of the show.

Chris Coulson · October 9th, 2008, 04:40 AM

Great advice, thanks.

The two side cams are at the front edges of teh stage already, so although they're great for closeups, I'm just a little concerned that they're almost 90-degree side shots, rather than front shots?

Maybe if I have the front centre camera as far away from the stage as possible, but at the side (there's no centre aisle) that'll minimise the side-ness (I made that word up!) of the shot?

Tony Neal · October 9th, 2008, 05:24 AM

Keep the rear camera dead centre if possible. Moving it off-centre for wide shots will result in the front of the stage and the top of the proscenium arch (if there is one) never being parallel with the 16:9 frame even when the camera is perfectly level - it just looks wrong.

If its a play you're recording then the side cams are far too close to the stage - you'll see activity in the wings - stagehands and waiting actors etc.and you will have to keep your closeups very tight and avoid medium shots.

But if its something like a talent show then they might be OK - your medium shots can include some audience reaction.

Chris Coulson · October 9th, 2008, 05:49 AM

It's a modern churchie thing, so half of it is like a rock concert, and the other half of it is like a single guy talking and walking around the stage.

So it's both sorts! :-)

Boyd Ostroff · October 9th, 2008, 01:17 PM

I shoot performance video of our operas from the back row center at about 100 feet from the front of the stage. I use a Century 1.6x teleconvertor to get a little closer. It's partial zoom through, out to about the 50% reading on the Z1 zoom scale. When zoomed in to the max it will give you a shot from something like the waist to top of the head at that distance. Without the convertor you can only get a full body shot.

Century makes a 2x teleconvertor now, but it's really pricey. All the same, if it had been available when I got my camera I probably would have gone with it instead. But the difference between 1.6x and 2.0x isn't enough to justify an upgrade at this point.

Eric Lagerlof · October 9th, 2008, 08:12 PM

Chris, as to your original question-HDV in an SD frame. I use the trick in similar situations, but only if you do it in post. Shoot HDV, import as HDV in an SD project and if you have decent focus and no gain noise, you can bring up the HDV footage up to about '80%'. (The hdv frame is at 44% to fill an SD frame.)

October 9th, 2008, 02:57 AM	#1
Chris Coulson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Kent, UK Posts: 101	Thinking outside the box - Maximum zoom capability? Hi, I'm filming a live stage event at the end of october with an FX1, and I can only locate at the back. I don't have exact measurements yet, but I'm concerned that my zoom isn't going to be enough to do a closeup on someone's face. However, I'm not actually fillming it as such either, My FX1 is just giving a S-video feed to a vision mixer with 3 other cameras. Now here's the possibly? clever bit. I'm outputting SD, but the camera is HD, so that gives me either 2x or 4x? digital zoom without any loss of pixels? or something like that? I'm not exactly sure even if the FX1 does digital zoom, but I just had this revelation, and feeling quite smug. Now I'll go and look and see if it can actually do Digital zoom! Any other ideas? Its a one off charity event, so spending £400UKP on a 2x lens is out of the question. If there's one for £1-200UKP maybe, but I can't find one. Any ideas? Bueller? :-)

October 9th, 2008, 03:51 AM	#2
Tony Neal Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Fareham, UK Posts: 160	No, the FX1 doesn't have digital zoom. Trying to do closeups from the back means maximum zoom and reduced maximum aperture. The bottom line is that even with reasonable stage lighting the FX1 will struggle to give a well exposed steady closup - its only a 12x zoom after all. By the time its scaled down to SD it may not look too good. Best to lock off your FX1 at the back and use it for a fallback wide shot of the stage and bring your other 2 cams halfway down the auditorium for the closeups. Being off-centre won't matter for closups and medium shots and you get more interesting angles and lighting than shooting head-on. You'll also be able pan to the audience and see some faces if thats part of the show.

October 9th, 2008, 04:40 AM	#3
Chris Coulson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Kent, UK Posts: 101	Great advice, thanks. The two side cams are at the front edges of teh stage already, so although they're great for closeups, I'm just a little concerned that they're almost 90-degree side shots, rather than front shots? Maybe if I have the front centre camera as far away from the stage as possible, but at the side (there's no centre aisle) that'll minimise the side-ness (I made that word up!) of the shot?

October 9th, 2008, 05:24 AM	#4
Tony Neal Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Fareham, UK Posts: 160	Keep the rear camera dead centre if possible. Moving it off-centre for wide shots will result in the front of the stage and the top of the proscenium arch (if there is one) never being parallel with the 16:9 frame even when the camera is perfectly level - it just looks wrong. If its a play you're recording then the side cams are far too close to the stage - you'll see activity in the wings - stagehands and waiting actors etc.and you will have to keep your closeups very tight and avoid medium shots. But if its something like a talent show then they might be OK - your medium shots can include some audience reaction.

October 9th, 2008, 05:49 AM	#5
Chris Coulson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Kent, UK Posts: 101	It's a modern churchie thing, so half of it is like a rock concert, and the other half of it is like a single guy talking and walking around the stage. So it's both sorts! :-)

October 9th, 2008, 01:17 PM	#6
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	I shoot performance video of our operas from the back row center at about 100 feet from the front of the stage. I use a Century 1.6x teleconvertor to get a little closer. It's partial zoom through, out to about the 50% reading on the Z1 zoom scale. When zoomed in to the max it will give you a shot from something like the waist to top of the head at that distance. Without the convertor you can only get a full body shot. Century makes a 2x teleconvertor now, but it's really pricey. All the same, if it had been available when I got my camera I probably would have gone with it instead. But the difference between 1.6x and 2.0x isn't enough to justify an upgrade at this point.

October 9th, 2008, 08:12 PM	#7
Eric Lagerlof Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Pacifica, CA Posts: 348	Chris, as to your original question-HDV in an SD frame. I use the trick in similar situations, but only if you do it in post. Shoot HDV, import as HDV in an SD project and if you have decent focus and no gain noise, you can bring up the HDV footage up to about '80%'. (The hdv frame is at 44% to fill an SD frame.)