Question about Steve Mullen's 24P workflow suggestion at DVinfo.net

Craig Irving · July 16th, 2007, 08:24 AM

I'm on a PC w/ Avid so I decided to try his suggestion.

However in DVFilm Maker I can't seem to find any options for DNxHD in my Compressor options. All I can do is output an AVI file that rarely plays back properly in VLC Player. When it does, it's a 4:3 image and not my original 16:9. It seems like it's all there, just horizontally compressed.

When I tried dragging it into Media Composer, it seemed to take the footage in properly yet it transcoded it to DNxHD 115 instead of the suggested DNxHD 145. Will this be a problem? Am I losing something using the 115 codec instead of the 145 and facing the obstacles I did earlier in the process? FWIW, Avid seems to be correctly identifying this as a 16:9 clip again.

For the record, I didn't capture the footage with the tool Steve suggested. This footage could have been captured from Premiere Pro, Vegas, or Cineform's HDLink, I really don't know. But I assume it doesn't make any difference since it's the original M2T file.

Steve Mullen · July 16th, 2007, 03:32 PM

1) The fact Avid is not using a TR (Thin Raster) codec confirms the AVI isn't being seen as 1080i.

2) The 115 suggests that it might not even be seen as HD.

3) So, I wonder what the AVI file actually is. What are it's properties?

4) Finding the DNxHD codec is not obvious. Stay tuned and I'll report back in a few hours how I did it. Got to drop something at FEDEX right now.

Craig Irving · July 16th, 2007, 03:57 PM

Thanks Steve. I appreciate your help!

I guess my problem is with whatever it is DVFilm Maker is exporting then. Maybe my version is too old. I'm running 2.4f and I see they're all the way up to 2.4i now so I'll try upgrading and see if that resolves things.

I guess the one key step that I had to skip was that even though the Compression dialog box appears, those Avid codecs aren't visible for me for some reason. Maybe I'll try giving Avid a call.

I checked the properties of the AVI file that DVFilm Maker 2.4f exported and sure enough, it's 1440x1080. For codec it just says "Uncompressed"

Marcus van Bavel · July 16th, 2007, 07:07 PM

You need to download the Avid quicktime software codecs. They are free from the Avid website. Go here or seach avid.com for Avid Codecs LE.

http://www.avid.com/content/7952/AvidCodecsLE120PC.zip

Also by the way you have to tell your editing system that the pixel aspect ratio is 1.333, because there is no brand-agnostic way to do that in a quicktime file. That's why the clip may not look widescreen until you set that property in the NLE. The exception to that is if you choose a codec that is only used for widescreen (like Avid DV100/50Hz which is 1440 x 1080 but always displayed 16:9).

John McManimie · July 16th, 2007, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

1)

2) The 115 suggests that it might not even be seen as HD.

According to their docs, DNxHD 115 is for 1920x1080p/23.976 (or 24), full HD raster, 8-bit at 116 Mb/s -or- 720p/50 at 175 Mb/s.

Steve Mullen · July 16th, 2007, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McManimie

According to their docs, DNxHD 115 is for 1920x1080p/23.976 (or 24), full HD raster, 8-bit at 116 Mb/s -or- 720p/50 at 175 Mb/s.

That makes sense since both of these have less incoming data than 1080i60.

Steve Mullen · July 16th, 2007, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus van Bavel

You need to download the Avid quicktime software codecs. They are free from the Avid website. Go here or seach avid.com for Avid Codecs LE.

I sure don't remember doing that. I assume they came with Composer -- which if true would mean they should be there.

---------

under ADVANCED OPTIONS you must select both CHOOSE COMPRESSION and USE QUICKTIME.

under codecs go to the top where you should find a bunch of Avid codecs. chose DNxHD. then use OPTIONS to choose the one you want.

Craig Irving · July 17th, 2007, 05:31 PM

I just installed a fresh version of Avid Media Composer, and I installed the codec pack that Marcus recommended, but they still don't show up when DVFilm Maker asks me what kind of compression I want.

Anyway "Full Frames - Uncompressed" seems to work 100% fine though, because Avid accepts it and will transcode it to DNxHD 115 which still seems to be 1440x1080 and displayed in proper aspect ratio.

I just hope that DVFilm Maker is converting 60i back to 24p the way Sony is doing it with Vegas. I assume it would be exact if I shot it in 24p but I shot it using the 24pA mode which isn't exactly 3:2 pulldown. So I hope it knows what to do with the right frames.

Can I somehow just use Vegas to capture and pulldown the file and then export to something ready for Avid so I won't need to use DVFilm Maker?

Marcus van Bavel · July 17th, 2007, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Irving

I just installed a fresh version of Avid Media Composer, and I installed the codec pack that Marcus recommended, but they still don't show up when DVFilm Maker asks me what kind of compression I want.

You are using the "Always Make quicktime" correct? Otherwise it is prompting you for an AVI codec. The codec pack is only for Quicktime.

Quote:

Anyway "Full Frames - Uncompressed" seems to work 100% fine though, because Avid accepts it and will transcode it to DNxHD 115 which still seems to be 1440x1080 and displayed in proper aspect ratio.

I just hope that DVFilm Maker is converting 60i back to 24p the way Sony is doing it with Vegas. I assume it would be exact if I shot it in 24p but I shot it using the 24pA mode which isn't exactly 3:2 pulldown. So I hope it knows what to do with the right frames.

Actually not, if you specify 60i to 24p. That is a field-blend conversion to 24. The 2:3:3:2 and 3:2 pulldown remove modes are disabled in Maker for HD files. However we will be releasing a update that does HD pulldown removal next week.

Quote:

Can I somehow just use Vegas to capture and pulldown the file and then export to something ready for Avid so I won't need to use DVFilm Maker?

Yes except for 2 things. Vegas sometimes chokes on exporting long quicktimes and does not have a batch processing feature.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · July 17th, 2007, 07:15 PM

Vegas does offer batch processing to QT;
Tools/Scripting/Batch Process will get you there. If you don't already have the QT template you want to use, you'll need to create it first, then it will be visible in the batch processing template options.
How long is "long?" The project you helped us with, Marcus, is over 3:45 in length.

Marcus van Bavel · July 17th, 2007, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Vegas does offer batch processing to QT;
Tools/Scripting/Batch Process will get you there. If you don't already have the QT template you want to use, you'll need to create it first, then it will be visible in the batch processing template options.
How long is "long?" The project you helped us with, Marcus, is over 3:45 in length.

You exported a 3 hour quicktime?

Douglas Spotted Eagle · July 17th, 2007, 07:43 PM

QT wrapper, AVC codec for previz, yes. Vegas 7, version b or c, can't recall what was loaded at the time of NAB.

Craig Irving · July 17th, 2007, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus van Bavel

You are using the "Always Make quicktime" correct? Otherwise it is prompting you for an AVI codec. The codec pack is only for Quicktime.

Ahhh! That was the problem. I must have read Steve's guide too quick, or maybe he mentioned that in the first section for FCP. I skipped straight down to the Avid workflow since I don't own a Mac.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus van Bavel

Actually not, if you specify 60i to 24p. That is a field-blend conversion to 24. The 2:3:3:2 and 3:2 pulldown remove modes are disabled in Maker for HD files. However we will be releasing a update that does HD pulldown removal next week.

That's great... So then is it still best to shoot in 24A mode, or is it best to use the regular 24P (non-A) mode? From my understanding, I didn't think 24A was 3:2 or 2:3:3:2.

Craig Irving · July 17th, 2007, 07:58 PM

Now that all the Avid options are showing up. I'm confused.

Should I be using the 60i preset that was suggested, DNxHD 145?
Shouldn't I still continue to use DNxHD 115 since I want to create a 1080/23.976P file?

Marcus van Bavel · July 17th, 2007, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

QT wrapper, AVC codec for previz, yes. Vegas 7, version b or c, can't recall what was loaded at the time of NAB.

Cool. Well I had a customer that was trying to make 1 min uncompressed quicktimes from Vegas 7.0d and it would either hang up after creating overly huge files or bomb out. I tried it myself and reproduced the problem. Then I searched dvxuser and found a number of posts

See for example
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=83707

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=71567

You've never heard of that problem?

July 16th, 2007, 08:24 AM	#1
Craig Irving Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Toronto Posts: 539	Question about Steve Mullen's 24P workflow suggestion I'm on a PC w/ Avid so I decided to try his suggestion. However in DVFilm Maker I can't seem to find any options for DNxHD in my Compressor options. All I can do is output an AVI file that rarely plays back properly in VLC Player. When it does, it's a 4:3 image and not my original 16:9. It seems like it's all there, just horizontally compressed. When I tried dragging it into Media Composer, it seemed to take the footage in properly yet it transcoded it to DNxHD 115 instead of the suggested DNxHD 145. Will this be a problem? Am I losing something using the 115 codec instead of the 145 and facing the obstacles I did earlier in the process? FWIW, Avid seems to be correctly identifying this as a 16:9 clip again. For the record, I didn't capture the footage with the tool Steve suggested. This footage could have been captured from Premiere Pro, Vegas, or Cineform's HDLink, I really don't know. But I assume it doesn't make any difference since it's the original M2T file.

July 16th, 2007, 03:32 PM	#2
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	1) The fact Avid is not using a TR (Thin Raster) codec confirms the AVI isn't being seen as 1080i. 2) The 115 suggests that it might not even be seen as HD. 3) So, I wonder what the AVI file actually is. What are it's properties? 4) Finding the DNxHD codec is not obvious. Stay tuned and I'll report back in a few hours how I did it. Got to drop something at FEDEX right now. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

July 16th, 2007, 03:57 PM	#3
Craig Irving Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Toronto Posts: 539	Thanks Steve. I appreciate your help! I guess my problem is with whatever it is DVFilm Maker is exporting then. Maybe my version is too old. I'm running 2.4f and I see they're all the way up to 2.4i now so I'll try upgrading and see if that resolves things. I guess the one key step that I had to skip was that even though the Compression dialog box appears, those Avid codecs aren't visible for me for some reason. Maybe I'll try giving Avid a call. I checked the properties of the AVI file that DVFilm Maker 2.4f exported and sure enough, it's 1440x1080. For codec it just says "Uncompressed" Last edited by Craig Irving; July 16th, 2007 at 06:49 PM.

July 17th, 2007, 07:15 PM	#10
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Vegas does offer batch processing to QT; Tools/Scripting/Batch Process will get you there. If you don't already have the QT template you want to use, you'll need to create it first, then it will be visible in the batch processing template options. How long is "long?" The project you helped us with, Marcus, is over 3:45 in length. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

July 17th, 2007, 07:43 PM	#12
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	QT wrapper, AVC codec for previz, yes. Vegas 7, version b or c, can't recall what was loaded at the time of NAB. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

July 16th, 2007, 07:07 PM	#4
Marcus van Bavel Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Austin TX Posts: 176	You need to download the Avid quicktime software codecs. They are free from the Avid website. Go here or seach avid.com for Avid Codecs LE. http://www.avid.com/content/7952/AvidCodecsLE120PC.zip Also by the way you have to tell your editing system that the pixel aspect ratio is 1.333, because there is no brand-agnostic way to do that in a quicktime file. That's why the clip may not look widescreen until you set that property in the NLE. The exception to that is if you choose a codec that is only used for widescreen (like Avid DV100/50Hz which is 1440 x 1080 but always displayed 16:9).

July 17th, 2007, 05:31 PM	#8
Craig Irving Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Toronto Posts: 539	I just installed a fresh version of Avid Media Composer, and I installed the codec pack that Marcus recommended, but they still don't show up when DVFilm Maker asks me what kind of compression I want. Anyway "Full Frames - Uncompressed" seems to work 100% fine though, because Avid accepts it and will transcode it to DNxHD 115 which still seems to be 1440x1080 and displayed in proper aspect ratio. I just hope that DVFilm Maker is converting 60i back to 24p the way Sony is doing it with Vegas. I assume it would be exact if I shot it in 24p but I shot it using the 24pA mode which isn't exactly 3:2 pulldown. So I hope it knows what to do with the right frames. Can I somehow just use Vegas to capture and pulldown the file and then export to something ready for Avid so I won't need to use DVFilm Maker?

July 17th, 2007, 07:58 PM	#14
Craig Irving Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Toronto Posts: 539	Now that all the Avid options are showing up. I'm confused. Should I be using the 60i preset that was suggested, DNxHD 145? Shouldn't I still continue to use DNxHD 115 since I want to create a 1080/23.976P file?