Pulldown/Inverse Telecine process for 24P

[Craig Irving]

Aside from CineForm AspectHD and the native support in Sony Vegas, what other methods are people using on the PC to do the pulldown/inverse telecine?

I've noticed Canopus ProCoder have added inverse telecine in version 3. Does this mean that (as long as I'm willing to edit in MPEG-2 instead of CineForm) that I can do the inverse telecine w/ ProCoder and then import it into Premiere Pro 2?

Is anyone currently editing 24P from a V1U in Adobe Premiere Pro without CineForm? Since Steve Mullen recommended tools on the Mac platform that do inverse telecine I assumed there must be a similar workflow on the PC that doesn't involve CineForm. Anyone have experience with this?

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Craig Irving

I've noticed Canopus ProCoder have added inverse telecine in version 3. Does this mean that (as long as I'm willing to edit in MPEG-2 instead of CineForm) that I can do the inverse telecine w/ ProCoder and then import it into Premiere Pro 2?

EDIUS does the pulldown removal to their HQ codec, so if you want an intermeiate codec, EDIUS is the way to go.

[David Newman]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

EDIUS does the pulldown removal to their HQ codec, so if you want an intermeiate codec, EDIUS is the way to go.

That's a strong option, where is that coming from? CineForm Intermediate is more flexible than HQ, now supporting cross platform, resolutions above 1440 (NEO HD, Prospect HD) it is 10-bit or 12-bit now is all versions, HQ is only 8-bit. Now if you are recommending Edius over Premiere that is fine, but not HQ over CineForm Intermediate.

[Steve Mullen]

CORRECTION: EDIUS does the pulldown removal to their HQ codec, so if you want an intermeiate codec, EDIUS is the way to go if:

You don't want want to pay for extra software. In fact, you get the whole NLE for less than a codec add on.

If you want the intermediate codec and the NLE to come from the same company so all integration issues are solved -- as is DNxHD with Avid and ProRes 422 with Apple.

If you want an NLE that can edit 99% of the formats including JVC's new HDD MPEG-2.

If you want an NLE that is broadcast proven.

If you want an NLE not aligned with a camcorder company.

If you want to buy an NLE and not get sucked into Adobe's CS packages and don't want to wait until fall `07.

If you have understand that the visible differences between 8-bit and 10-bits and one intermediate codec and another ARE real, but like untra expensive "power conditioners" and "exotic cables" in the HIFI world -- they make little difference to an audience because 99% of video quality is determined by the camcorder and the skill using it.

Also, except for pulldown removal, it's now been accepted by most NLE users that native HDV editing and FireWire transfer preserves all the quality there is in HDV -- therefore there is no NEED for any intermediate codec. Intermediates increase storage requirement -- and increase disk bandwidth which MAY lower the number of realtime streams.

Of course, where CineForm FX can be used, RT performance increases -- to a point. Also, many claim that native HDV is less response when editing -- I suspect these are folks without Core 2 based systems.

That's not to say CineForm doesn't have a huge value to Premiere users. Were someone to insist on buying Premiere I would, and always have, recommend CineForm.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Also, except for pulldown removal, it's now been accepted by most NLE users that native HDV editing and FireWire transfer preserves all the quality there is in HDV -- therefore there is no NEED for any intermediate codec. Intermediates increase storage requirement -- and increase disk bandwidth which MAY lower the number of realtime streams.

Please demonstrate where "most NLE users have accepted" this as true. Our experiences here and with our clients show the opposite, whether it's Cineform or other intermediary.

[David Newman]

Steve,

In my original post, I was only trying to pointing out that as an intermediate we are one of the better know, and pulldown removal is something we do very well, including from HDSDI and HDMI, all the way down to our $249 product. Clearly you have become a fan of Edius, that's great, fortunately there are bigger markets and CineForm has been doing a lot more than you might realize. From my perspective "so if you want an intermediate codec", CineForm "is the way to go." :)

[Seth Bloombaum]

To me, the post above seems a biased promo for Edius, and as such, not very helpful. Specific comments below.

Steve Mullen wrote:
"EDIUS does the pulldown removal to their HQ codec, so if you want an intermeiate codec, EDIUS is the way to go if:

"You don't want want to pay for extra software. In fact, you get the whole NLE for less than a codec add on."

If you're comparing the Cineform Aspect HD package plus Premiere to Edius, I suppose the cost argument is valid. But then there's Vegas, which also includes the Cineform codec in the cost of the NLE, for about the same money as Edius. A $250 add-on gets you Cineform ingest.

"If you want the intermediate codec and the NLE to come from the same company so all integration issues are solved -- as is DNxHD with Avid and ProRes 422 with Apple."

Are we talking about integration issues that people have actually experienced? Or the hypothetical advantages of fully integrated platforms? Avid and FCP are being used with all kinds of third-party add ons.

"If you want an NLE that can edit 99% of the formats including JVC's new HDD MPEG-2."

Wouldn't that be Edius Broadcast, at about $1000, not Edius Pro?

"If you want an NLE that is broadcast proven."

So is Premiere, Vegas, FCP, Avid, ... Arguments that "my NLE is more professional than yours" belong in the archives circa 2002, and should stay there.

"If you want an NLE not aligned with a camcorder company."

Edius is owned by Grass Valley, which most definately DOES make cameras through the Thompson group.

"If you want to buy an NLE and not get sucked into Adobe's CS packages and don't want to wait until fall `07."

OK, I'm with Mullen here. It appears that CS3 ships August at the earliest, and lots of unknowns about upgrades and what's included and etc. This will be temporary.

"If you have understand that the visible differences between 8-bit and 10-bits and one intermediate codec and another ARE real, but like untra expensive "power conditioners" and "exotic cables" in the HIFI world -- they make little difference to an audience because 99% of video quality is determined by the camcorder and the skill using it."

These arguments apply equally to any choices made to include an intermediate codec in your workflow, no matter whether from Grass Valley, Apple or Cineform. There is some content that is demonstrably better with 10-bit. Most isn't. That doesn't put 10-bit codecs into the class of exotic cables that never make any difference to the image or sound quality.

Those cables exist to generate huge markups without providing corresponding value. In no way is that the market space that Cineform is operating in.

"Also, except for pulldown removal, it's now been accepted by most NLE users that native HDV editing and FireWire transfer preserves all the quality there is in HDV -- therefore there is no NEED for any intermediate codec. Intermediates increase storage requirement -- and increase disk bandwidth which MAY lower the number of realtime streams."

Now we're on the other side of the fence? We don't need intermediate codecs from Cineform, Grass Valley, or anyone else because "(native HDV)... preserves all the quality there is in HDV"??? Unless we're doing pulldown removal?

Like most HDV editors I know, I cut some native HDV on the timeline, and use intermediate codecs for some, because it does make a difference when using workflows that neccessitate multiple generations. Native HDV just doesn't hold up its beautiful look down a couple generations.

I've not used it, but I hear good things about Edius, and good things about the value it provides. Canopus was great as an independant company. Grass Valley is well respected in the professional industry.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by David Newman

Clearly you have become a fan of Edius,

I'm a huge fan of CineForm as implemented in Premiere. With Premiere you not only supply a great codec you get the CineForm RT engine -- and I understand there is now a CineForm export engine.

The problem is that I don't think any other NLE gives you the hooks to do this. In the case of Apple, I believe their RT Extream engine only works with a limited number of Apple codecs. So ANY codec would have to offer huge visable difference to make someone NOT use ProRes -- particularly when ProRes is free. Maybe I'm missing the advantages of CineForm over ProRes 422. (I don't mean theoretical, but real visable differences.)

I guess I'm not sure if any codecs really have that much visible impact for most folks shooting HDV. Certainly, the tests of HDV-to-ProRes have been very positive and equal to DNxHD.

Anyway, my original point was that for someone who wants to spend about $500 on an NLE and needs pulldown removal -- there are only two choices Vegas and Edius. I didn't mean to suggest that Edius was the "best" NLE -- although I'll admit after seeing 4.5 I'm certainly impressed.

I've used Premiere since V4 and I'm keeping a very open mind as to what CS3 will bring. The Beta, however, doesn't seem to be anything more than a continuation of a literal clone of FCP. That I don't want. :)

IMHO Adobe should OEM Cineform so the issue of the additional cost doesn't even come up. It's CineForm that makes Premiere a real HDV NLE. They need you as much as they need the MainConcept encoder that they OEM.

PS: Given this is a V1 forum, I wasn't counting Grass Valley as being in our price range. I continue to think of Canopus as Japanese because that's where the engineering is done. Also, I wasn't clear -- by all formats -- I meant all formats in a V1 price range: all 720p HDV and all 1080i HDV, AVCHD, and MPEG-2 on harddisk.

Your point about multigenerational is important:

1) In most cases, only segments of a production get passed to a second or third application -- the NLE can capture native HDV and edit it. You want to export just this brief segment in an intermediate codec. This saves tons of disk space since only the segment uses an intermediate. I call this a Transfer Codec.

2) Both Avid and Apple do NOT have generational issues with HDV. So if you mean multi-layer, that's a myth.

3) Equally a myth, the concern that re-editing a timeline causes generational losses. For example, Apple's Color inputs HDV and you have the option to render to HDV (not a smart idea) or render to ProRes 422. Avid, forces all HDV renders to DNxHD. You can't get any losses.