It was in the HDCP... at DVinfo.net

Marcus Marchesseault · June 8th, 2007, 11:20 PM

A friend got a response from Sony regarding using HD monitors with the V1:

"HDMI and DVI electrical specifications are similar. How HDCP
is implemented and if the resolutions are supported will determine how
the display will react. The Dell UltraSharp 2407WFP does not support
1920 x 1080 in its preset modes and does not support HDCP. Therefore,
when you feed a Video signal from the HVR-V1U, the Camera, not seeing
HDCP, will put out a SD signal on the HDMI as per the HDMI V1 spec. If
the 2407WFP did have HDCP support, then it would have either displayed a
"Not Supported Resolution" message or tried the nearest preset, causing
the image to be stretched or cut off."

So, lack of (or poor implementation of) HDCP is why the 24" 1920x1080 Dell monitors won't display HDMI signals from the V1 via a DVI cable in full resolution. It also appears to be the case with other computer monitors. This is what I suspected from the beginning. There is more to the response from Sony, but that paragraph is the important part. The tech, Doug Bierschenk, also mentioned that "Many of the new Computer
Monitors now have HD support and HDMI-HDCP inputs that would be able to
use with this camera."

I guess there will be more affordable small HD solutions eventually. It would have been nice if the industry would have worked out the kinks in the beginning instead of still having incompatibilities and unanswered questions three years into the HD market.

Steve Mullen · June 9th, 2007, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus Marchesseault

I guess there will be more affordable small HD solutions eventually. It would have been nice if the industry would have worked out the kinks in the beginning instead of still having incompatibilities and unanswered questions three years into the HD market.

There are dozens of affordable HD solutions with HDMI-HDCP! Trying to use a PC monitor because it had high-rez was no-no from the get go. Go by Walmat or Costco. Many real HDTVs for about $1,000. A friend picked-up a 42 plasma for $800. I suspect there are 1920x1080 LCDs for about $1000.

Bob Grant · June 9th, 2007, 02:22 AM

That's kind of a worry as Dell do claim they have HDCP on their DVI input so this could be a Dell problem. Then again why are Sony hiding behind what the spec says when there's no reason I can see for needing HDCP on the camera's HDMI port.

Marcus Marchesseault · June 9th, 2007, 02:43 AM

Steve, I should have clarified that there will be affordable SMALL HD solutions eventually. Right now, monitors that rival computer LCD screens are twice the cost and half the pixels. The only smaller consumer monitor that is known to work through HDMI is the Vizio VX20L 20" from Costco (search for it in this forum). The Dell 24" LCD monitor strangely doesn't even work with component.

I'm hoping to find a decent monitor for on-site work, not watching afterwards. I can easily run a computer monitor on location, but it's SD downconversion isn't very helpful for focusing. I suppose I'll get something like the Vizio. It would be great if a cheap computer monitor with something greater than 1366x768 would work as it would likely become even cheaper and more portable without speakers. There are $200 LCD monitors right now with 1600x1050 resolution (similar to HDV) that are just the right size. If only they had HDCP and proper image scaling...

Giroud Francois · June 9th, 2007, 05:48 AM

samsung does a very small LCD TV (19") with 1440x900 resolution , the LE19R71B
it seems there is some problem with that model coming under different flavor,some advertised as NOT hd-ready, but on the avs forum , there is this info...

"The SAMSUNG LE19R71BX is aesthetically the same TV, however it is NOT HD ready, and only has one scart, and S-Video connections, although it says it HAS a HDMI connection!? Figure that out!

The SAMSUNG LE19R71WX again looks carbon copy the same, IS HD-Ready, but only has 1 DVI, 1 Scart and 1 VGA (HD-15) Inputs, no HDMI.

The SAMSUNG LE-19R71B is, yet again the same looking, IS HD-Ready, and features 1 x compenent, 1 x composite, DVI & HDMI HDCP, 1 x DVI, 1 x HDMI, 2 x Scart, 1 x VGA (HD-15) Input and S-Video!"

Marcus Marchesseault · June 9th, 2007, 06:53 AM

"Then again why are Sony hiding behind what the spec says when there's no reason I can see for needing HDCP on the camera's HDMI port."

They are trying to save us from ourselves. Think of the children, man!

Giroud, thanks for that information. It seems not even the top manufacturers can figure out the HD mess. At least it seems that there may be some more models of small HDTV sets that may work soon.

Adam Gold · June 9th, 2007, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus Marchesseault

The only smaller consumer monitor that is known to work through HDMI is the Vizio VX20L 20" from Costco (search for it in this forum).

I have a couple of these I use to check focus when capturing. I use an HC3 as a playback/capture deck. The monitor isn't perfect, as I guess it has to rescale the 1080 output to 768 or 720 or something, but it's good enough to check focus. There's a minor time delay between the firewire and HDMI outputs from the cam, but it's tolerable.

I also use it to check the output from the PC when mastering back to tape. A pretty good value for what it is. It was the only real HDTV with HDMI I could find in its price range.

Steve Mullen · June 9th, 2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Grant

That's kind of a worry as Dell do claim they have HDCP on their DVI input so this could be a Dell problem. Then again why are Sony hiding behind what the spec says when there's no reason I can see for needing HDCP on the camera's HDMI port.

Look up the Zoran HDMI chip. HDCP comes as part of the chip.

The real issue is that the V1 was designed by the consumer group and the idea of a consumer or prosumer carrying an HD monitor into the field would never occur to them. If I had been asked about field monitoring, I would have pointed folks to Sony or Pana or Marshal. I had no idea anyone would use a $5K camcorder this way.

Obviously everyone is free to buy and use equipment anyway they want, but IMHO if you buy a consumer camera you are accepting that you'll learn to use what it offers. There is no need to worry about focus -- the V1's auto focus works perfectly. If you are trying to follow focus -- this is not the camera in any case. (Buy the JVC or XDCAM HD.) So there's no need for a field HD monitor. Or, certainly no need for anything more than a 1280x720 monitor.

Marcus Marchesseault · June 9th, 2007, 07:13 PM

I don't agree that the auto-focus is perfect. I use the momentary focus button to allow the camera to focus on my subject then I leave it on manual until the subject or camera moves. If I push the button three times, I can get three different focus distances. That's not perfect. If the shot is dim and/or there aren't any high-contrast details for the autofocus to use, it can become inaccurate.

I agree that the camera can be used as-is for many circumstances, but movie-making is more critical than event video or nature video. brief moments of hunting focus is okay in once-in-a-lifetime shots but it's not acceptable during planned shots. Also, making a movie short usually requires that someone other than the camera operator watch the video for continuity and such so a field monitor is useful for more than just focus.

Steve Mullen · June 9th, 2007, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus Marchesseault

If I push the button three times, I can get three different focus distances. That's not perfect. If the shot is dim and/or there aren't any high-contrast details for the autofocus to use, it can become inaccurate.

I agree that the camera can be used as-is for many circumstances, but movie-making is more critical than event video or nature video.

The reason you may get three different distances is the DOF is so great that all of them are valid. So, if you get three numbers -- choose the middle one. (In fact, at any Z value up to 60 -- if I remember right -- everything is always in focus.)

As far as dim or low-contrast -- these are EZ. A lighted clap-board held in front of the subject will work. An LED flashlight mounted on and shining on a vertical rod will work fine. No different than using a tape measure. In fact, a laser range finder wil get the distance in 2 seconds.

"brief moments of hunting focus" I agree -- that's why the AF is locked before pressing START.

However, I have done panning from subject to subject in very low light -- the V1 works perfectly. It does NOT lose focus between people or objects. The AF is very clever.

Marcus Marchesseault · June 9th, 2007, 08:58 PM

I agree that depth of field can give various results that are in focus. I also have not written a book about the V1. Regardless, I have had anomalous results on occasion with the momentary auto focus button. With the iris fully open (shallow DOF) with subjects and background with few contrast details, the camera could get fooled.

I did not start with the assumption that I needed an HD monitor to check focus. I assumed that use of the auto focus with the momentary button and the use of peaking would be enough. Unfortunately, the flip-out LCD isn't enough to show how things really look on a big screen. I have found that peaking marks show up on two objects that are within a foot or two of each other yet one or both can be out of focus. They can both show peaks but the plane between them is what is really in focus.

The lighted clap board is an example of a helpful suggestion and I'll be sure to try something like that out soon. I'll also remember to pack the tape measure and note distances to and from various points in the scene. V1 users also probably need to make sure they are using the expanded focus option frequently.

Bob Grant · June 9th, 2007, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

I had no idea anyone would use a $5K camcorder this way.

Perhaps a bit more time with people who use cameras for a living / try to do the best they can with what they can afford, would keep you better informed. Sure it'd be nice if we all could afford top shelf kit but I have the utmost respect for those who try to squeeze as much as possible out of what they can afford.

Quote:

The real issue is that the V1 was designed by the consumer group and the idea of a consumer or prosumer carrying an HD monitor into the field would never occur to them.

I don't know which group in Sony specifically designed the V1 but it's not marketed through their consummer outlets and falls under their broadcast divisions. I've seen the V1 at several trade shows connected to a full res HD monitor by Sony, so I guess the idea does occur to them.

Quote:

If you are trying to follow focus -- this is not the camera in any case. (Buy the JVC or XDCAM HD.) So there's no need for a field HD monitor. Or, certainly no need for anything more than a 1280x720 monitor.

Well our clients who are shooting anything critical certainly don't think so, they've learned (some of them the hard way) how critical focus is in 1080, probably not so critical with the limited 720 res of JVC's cameras so perhaps you're right to that extent.
None of these cameras, thanks to the low cost lenses, can be used to accurately set focus with tapes (where's the tape hook??) or rangefinders, the lens markings / distance readouts don't have either enough resolution or accuracy to set critical focus. It's not that hard to get into a situation with any HD camera where DOF is less than 1" and the only way to set focus is with a full res monitor and the bigger the better. One thing easily overlooked is that apparent DOF is affected by resolution, a 720 monitor is possibly not going to give you the true picture.

As for doing follow focus with any of these cameras, well good focus pullers with good monitors seem to be able to pull it off with any camera that has manual focus. For certain servo focus lenses mean witness marks might not be reliable but the same goes for backlash in cheap lenses. I sure as heck can't pull it off myself but there are plenty of guys who can compensate for almost anything.

Marcus Marchesseault · June 9th, 2007, 10:50 PM

The point of servo lenses or lenses with backlash and other flaws is a good one. Since the V1 doesn't have a solid manual lens function and my Nikon lenses are almost as old as the silicon they are made of, the only thing that matters is how the final image looks. I can be prudent and take measurements and do all of the steps a good cinematographer should, but the only thing that matters in the end is the final display image. Since my work isn't going into a 35mm print and having a worldwide release, I'm most interested in how it will look on a consumer HD monitor. Since a portable LCD will allow me to check focus AND see my work in it's typical viewing scenario, it is a no-brainer that a monitor on set will be beneficial.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · June 9th, 2007, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus Marchesseault

I don't agree that the auto-focus is perfect. I use the momentary focus button to allow the camera to focus on my subject then I leave it on manual until the subject or camera moves. If I push the button three times, I can get three different focus distances. That's not perfect. If the shot is dim and/or there aren't any high-contrast details for the autofocus to use, it can become inaccurate.

Of course it's not, as you (and every owner of every small format camera) have discovered, it's very good, just as the Canon is extremely good, and most lower cost camcorders are quite good.
Follow focus in manual mode (which is how I suspect most shooters with the V1 are shooting) is very good with good gear. The RedRock Micro with or with out a whip is extremely solid, as is the Chrosziel. But *no* autofocus is perfect. Nor can you measure/mark with any servo based system, but that's OK, because you can come very, very close. We can also use shot transitioning for measure/mark.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Grant

Perhaps a bit more time with people who use cameras for a living / try to do the best they can with what they can afford, would keep you better informed. Sure it'd be nice if we all could afford top shelf kit but I have the utmost respect for those who try to squeeze as much as possible out of what they can afford.

Exceptionally well said.
BTW, it's not accurate to suggest that this camera was designed by the consumer group. Jody Eldred and myself, among other people, sat in on more than one brainstorming group session with the principal designer of this camera, who came from the CineAlta group specifically to design this camera and the Z1 camcorder. They also flew from Japan to both press release events in NYC, and were introduced as being from the CineAlta group.

Several posts have been edited to lose the disrespectful comments. Let's keep it respectful, guys.

Marcus Marchesseault · June 10th, 2007, 05:10 AM

"We can also use shot transitioning for measure/mark."

I think I'm going to look into that. I think I discounted shot transition because it takes up the assignable buttons to which I've become addicted. I think I need a big rack of buttons in a flip-out panel so I can do my Mr. Spock at his console impersonation.

June 8th, 2007, 11:20 PM	#1
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	It was in the HDCP... A friend got a response from Sony regarding using HD monitors with the V1: "HDMI and DVI electrical specifications are similar. How HDCP is implemented and if the resolutions are supported will determine how the display will react. The Dell UltraSharp 2407WFP does not support 1920 x 1080 in its preset modes and does not support HDCP. Therefore, when you feed a Video signal from the HVR-V1U, the Camera, not seeing HDCP, will put out a SD signal on the HDMI as per the HDMI V1 spec. If the 2407WFP did have HDCP support, then it would have either displayed a "Not Supported Resolution" message or tried the nearest preset, causing the image to be stretched or cut off." So, lack of (or poor implementation of) HDCP is why the 24" 1920x1080 Dell monitors won't display HDMI signals from the V1 via a DVI cable in full resolution. It also appears to be the case with other computer monitors. This is what I suspected from the beginning. There is more to the response from Sony, but that paragraph is the important part. The tech, Doug Bierschenk, also mentioned that "Many of the new Computer Monitors now have HD support and HDMI-HDCP inputs that would be able to use with this camera." I guess there will be more affordable small HD solutions eventually. It would have been nice if the industry would have worked out the kinks in the beginning instead of still having incompatibilities and unanswered questions three years into the HD market.

June 9th, 2007, 08:58 PM	#11
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	I agree that depth of field can give various results that are in focus. I also have not written a book about the V1. Regardless, I have had anomalous results on occasion with the momentary auto focus button. With the iris fully open (shallow DOF) with subjects and background with few contrast details, the camera could get fooled. I did not start with the assumption that I needed an HD monitor to check focus. I assumed that use of the auto focus with the momentary button and the use of peaking would be enough. Unfortunately, the flip-out LCD isn't enough to show how things really look on a big screen. I have found that peaking marks show up on two objects that are within a foot or two of each other yet one or both can be out of focus. They can both show peaks but the plane between them is what is really in focus. The lighted clap board is an example of a helpful suggestion and I'll be sure to try something like that out soon. I'll also remember to pack the tape measure and note distances to and from various points in the scene. V1 users also probably need to make sure they are using the expanded focus option frequently. Last edited by Douglas Spotted Eagle; June 9th, 2007 at 11:02 PM. Reason: inflammatory content

June 9th, 2007, 10:50 PM	#13
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	The point of servo lenses or lenses with backlash and other flaws is a good one. Since the V1 doesn't have a solid manual lens function and my Nikon lenses are almost as old as the silicon they are made of, the only thing that matters is how the final image looks. I can be prudent and take measurements and do all of the steps a good cinematographer should, but the only thing that matters in the end is the final display image. Since my work isn't going into a 35mm print and having a worldwide release, I'm most interested in how it will look on a consumer HD monitor. Since a portable LCD will allow me to check focus AND see my work in it's typical viewing scenario, it is a no-brainer that a monitor on set will be beneficial. Last edited by Douglas Spotted Eagle; June 9th, 2007 at 11:02 PM. Reason: inflammatory content

June 9th, 2007, 02:22 AM	#3
Bob Grant Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	That's kind of a worry as Dell do claim they have HDCP on their DVI input so this could be a Dell problem. Then again why are Sony hiding behind what the spec says when there's no reason I can see for needing HDCP on the camera's HDMI port.

June 9th, 2007, 02:43 AM	#4
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	Steve, I should have clarified that there will be affordable SMALL HD solutions eventually. Right now, monitors that rival computer LCD screens are twice the cost and half the pixels. The only smaller consumer monitor that is known to work through HDMI is the Vizio VX20L 20" from Costco (search for it in this forum). The Dell 24" LCD monitor strangely doesn't even work with component. I'm hoping to find a decent monitor for on-site work, not watching afterwards. I can easily run a computer monitor on location, but it's SD downconversion isn't very helpful for focusing. I suppose I'll get something like the Vizio. It would be great if a cheap computer monitor with something greater than 1366x768 would work as it would likely become even cheaper and more portable without speakers. There are $200 LCD monitors right now with 1600x1050 resolution (similar to HDV) that are just the right size. If only they had HDCP and proper image scaling...

June 9th, 2007, 05:48 AM	#5
Giroud Francois Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: switzerland Posts: 2,133	samsung does a very small LCD TV (19") with 1440x900 resolution , the LE19R71B it seems there is some problem with that model coming under different flavor,some advertised as NOT hd-ready, but on the avs forum , there is this info... "The SAMSUNG LE19R71BX is aesthetically the same TV, however it is NOT HD ready, and only has one scart, and S-Video connections, although it says it HAS a HDMI connection!? Figure that out! The SAMSUNG LE19R71WX again looks carbon copy the same, IS HD-Ready, but only has 1 DVI, 1 Scart and 1 VGA (HD-15) Inputs, no HDMI. The SAMSUNG LE-19R71B is, yet again the same looking, IS HD-Ready, and features 1 x compenent, 1 x composite, DVI & HDMI HDCP, 1 x DVI, 1 x HDMI, 2 x Scart, 1 x VGA (HD-15) Input and S-Video!"

June 9th, 2007, 06:53 AM	#6
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	"Then again why are Sony hiding behind what the spec says when there's no reason I can see for needing HDCP on the camera's HDMI port." They are trying to save us from ourselves. Think of the children, man! Giroud, thanks for that information. It seems not even the top manufacturers can figure out the HD mess. At least it seems that there may be some more models of small HDTV sets that may work soon.

June 9th, 2007, 07:13 PM	#9
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	I don't agree that the auto-focus is perfect. I use the momentary focus button to allow the camera to focus on my subject then I leave it on manual until the subject or camera moves. If I push the button three times, I can get three different focus distances. That's not perfect. If the shot is dim and/or there aren't any high-contrast details for the autofocus to use, it can become inaccurate. I agree that the camera can be used as-is for many circumstances, but movie-making is more critical than event video or nature video. brief moments of hunting focus is okay in once-in-a-lifetime shots but it's not acceptable during planned shots. Also, making a movie short usually requires that someone other than the camera operator watch the video for continuity and such so a field monitor is useful for more than just focus.

June 10th, 2007, 05:10 AM	#15
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	"We can also use shot transitioning for measure/mark." I think I'm going to look into that. I think I discounted shot transition because it takes up the assignable buttons to which I've become addicted. I think I need a big rack of buttons in a flip-out panel so I can do my Mr. Spock at his console impersonation.