24P look?

[Charles Paige]

I know all cameras are made differently but why doesn't the V1 have the same 24p look as the hxv or even the dvx? I know, why didnt i get a panasonic if i wanted that look? I'm a Sony kid and was jus wnodering why 24p from one cam to the next would produce different looks..

[Chris Leong]

Charles
I had a better result going from 1080i60 on my FX7 to 720p24 using MPEG Streamclip than I did with a V1 I tried out at the cinema 24 setting.
It's slower, takes rendering, but it's very nice. Intercuts well with the 720p24 footage from my partner's HD110.

HTH
Cheers
Chris

[Craig Irving]

I don't want to sound offensive or suggest that you're both "seeing things", but how can the Sony 24p mode possibly yield any aesthetic difference compared to the Panasonic?

Though it may temporarily carry the 24p in a 60i stream, after the reverse pulldown process brings you back to the original 24p, how can it be different? It's 24 progressive frames every second.

Doesn't every other difference come back to the lens, careful lighting, proper camera setups, etc...?

And as for Brendan's comment, the DVX100 does things the exact same way. It records to tape in 60i and stores the 24p signal inside w/ pulldown. Or perhaps you were referring to the HVX200, I'm not familiar with how that 24p signal gets recorded to a P2 card.

[Chris Leong]

Craig

Could be, could be.

The difference is in the softwares used to do the format conversions, and in the philosophies behind each implementation of those different softwares. . Same end result, different ways of getting there.

I think I can see that difference clearly. But then, again, I think I can see the difference between 1/2 and 1 stop overexposed, and also between a black net placed on the lens as against a black net software filter applied in post.

In this day and age, the technical and creative choices we have extend far beyond the mechanical.

Or then again, I may be seeing thngs.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Craig Irving

I don't want to sound offensive or suggest that you're both "seeing things", but how can the Sony 24p mode possibly yield any aesthetic difference compared to the Panasonic?

Though it may temporarily carry the 24p in a 60i stream, after the reverse pulldown process brings you back to the original 24p, how can it be different? It's 24 progressive frames every second.

You have nailed it.

First, 24p is NOT created from 60i as someone claimed.

Second, as you say, the 24p is carried in 60i by using 2- pulldown.

Third, once pulldown is removed, one is back to 24p. The same 24p as any other 24p.

[Chris Leong]

Charles
Back to your original question, there is of course another potential difference between the two cameras you mentioned, and that's the imaging systems themselves - the responses of the lenses, one a Zeiss and the other a Leitz, and of the chipsets.
While most people can't see the difference between a Zeiss lens and a Leitz lens in a stills shot, or the difference between a Kodak and a Fuji film, others can.

Personally, I prefer to muddy the issue up even more with a DOF box and a Nikon lens set... :)

[Heath McKnight]

Both the DVX and the V1u are progressive-scan sensors (CCD and CMOS, respectively). As it's been said, and is very common in almost all cameras that record 24p--it's delivered in a 60i stream. Also been said is removing the pulldown that is used to packaged the signal in the interlace stream.

The V1u's shutter should be set to 1/48; I've seen people set the shutter on the DVX and the V1u to 1/60, which creates a more "video" look. The shutter on the DVX100 should be set at 1/50 (I'm not a fan of syncro scan).

The only camera I can think of that doesn't cost a lot of money that records native 24p without a pulldown is the Panny HVX200. Shoot on 720p 24pn.

heath

[Charles Paige]

Maybe I gotta play with my V1 a little more and try different settings. You all make good points. I guess like with 35mm film cameras & film stock, those 2 elements produce different textures and motion.. I thot that 24p on the V1 would give the same look as the Pannys... or close to it. ,, What do I know?..lol Im learning everyday

[Heath McKnight]

As far as frame rates, yes, 24p cameras look alike there, I suppose, but the overall image is dependent on how you set it.

heath

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Heath McKnight

As far as frame rates, yes, 24p cameras look alike there, I suppose, ...

While the frame rates look the same -- the video may well not look the same. One difference -- that many have pointed out -- is that the amount of strobing differs between low-end and high-end (CineAlta) HD video cameras and film.

Many cheaper video cameras use lo-rez chips that natively output far fewer pixels than the recording formats. (A practice just slammed by Steve Jobs.) Several techniques are then used to boost the number of pixels., Some of these methods (pixel shift) increase resolution by only 15%. Other methods increase rez more, but still less than the recording format.

The cheaper HD camcorders also tend to have lenses that have much lower MTF than do expensive HD camcorders and film cameras.

The net result is low-cost cameras that have a frequency response that may fall-off very steeply past a mid-range (EDGES) peak. The solution is to boost the upper-end (FINE DETAIL) of the response curve.

Unfortunately, this boost raises the mid-range peak even more thereby sharpening edges. Our perception of strobing is dependent on moving edges and not moving fine detail. Hence, this boost increases the perception of strobing.

Expensive HD cameras behave far more like film cameras. Which is why a CineAlta and Varicam video can substitute for film. And, why those shooting 24p and 25p so often ask why -- especially on rapid pans or rapidly moving subjects -- their video doesn't really look like film.

These folks are told they have violated Cinematographer's Rules. Some may have. But, many more have not. The "rules" need to be revised for low-cost HD camcorders. Bottom line -- only pan when you can follow the subject AND keep motion speeds to a minimum. You can't shoot like you have a CineAlta just because you switch on 24p.

[Marcus Marchesseault]

"Expensive HD cameras behave far more like film cameras."

What are the high-end cameras doing to behave more like film? Do they use something more like a mechanical shutter?

[Charles Paige]

Steve, that goes back to my original question. Is it down to simple electronics that makes the DVX or HVX have a better 24p/film look compaired to the V1?