V1U 24p SCNA Woes with FCP 5.1.4 Capture at DVinfo.net

Eric Goodspeed · May 20th, 2007, 08:29 AM

Greetings All-

After many HDV tapes generated using the 24p SCNA mode (for the theoretcial extra ease of 3:2 pulldown workaround utilizing cinema tools) I have finally confronted a painful realization:

the first 6+ seconds of the automatically generated start/stop (flag) clip is absent on the captured file. These "lost" 6+ proximal seconds are recorded and played just not captured via CAPTURE NOW to the ultimate hard drive file. The realization came with lost introductions on interview clips.

One can fussily and painstakingly shuttle the deck/camera to the clip break and capture these "lost" proximal seconds. Very ugly and time consuming... (ah, such is logging) when one is accustom to using CAPTURE NOW for full- tape hard drive archiving.

Capturing a clip with defined TC in/out points does not work as well.

The solution is to switch to 24p.

"When recording in HDV format in [24A] mode, the time code does not progress correctly from scene to scene. When playing back those movies, a momentary pause will occur between scenes. In this case, you can copy the movies without the pause from your camcorder to a computer via an i.LINK cable and use them on the computer as normal movies."

I now understand this "pause". Still don't grasp the copying without the pause using the i.LINK. I have not had success.

Anybody else have this heartache, or have an insight/different solution?

Currently deployed in Iraq

be well,
EG

MacBook Pro 2.33 17"
FCP 5.1.4
V1U

Eric Goodspeed · May 21st, 2007, 08:55 AM

Greetings to the Curious-

Feedback/workaround to my original post:

If one is concerned about avoiding archiving entire tapes shot in 24p SCNA to a hard drive with the dreaded missing proximal 6+ seconds of each clip generated, then:

-go to USER PREFs
-set 'on timecode break' pulldown to ABORT CAPTURE
-Start play on deck then quickly hit NOW in the capture box.

Each newly generated clip will abort on start/stop break. The new clip generated after a previous abort will contain the originally missing proximal seconds.

happy harvesting

EG

Steve Mullen · May 21st, 2007, 08:28 PM

I assume you want to edit at 24p given you shot at 24p. That means you need to capture to AIC, not native HDV.

Cinema Tools can only work with AIC.

Capturing to AIC should eliminate you capture problems.

Jeffrey Butler · May 21st, 2007, 08:44 PM

Eric, try a test on a capture after you change your "preroll/post roll" prefs to 1 sec. You will still experience the loss of a second or so at each clip, but it does help.

I'm not sure about the Abort Capture option, but I currently have my "on timecode break" pref set to "Create New Clip." There's an Abort Capture option right above it, but it's a separate pref -- and if you set that "timecode break" pref to Abort Capture it will do just that - you don't want that - you want a new clip - which you'll get with the other setting. You may be getting it now b/c there are no timecode breaks. ?

I'm a bit frustrated with the 24p ingestion as well, but find that the Pre/Post Roll getting set to 1 sec really helps.

If AIC actually fixes it - I want to know about it. Because every time I capture 24p with AIC, it captures in spurts (gets it all) and marks the clips at 59.94 which, in turn, plays back fast in the timeline...even when I set the sequence prefs to 59.94...I haven't been able to capture 24p clean with AIC, and with HDV Native, cannot get the entire clip (I lose that second for preroll)(even though there's no preroll).

Alan Ortiz · May 21st, 2007, 11:27 PM

Hi Eric

Who are you deployed with (unit, etc) and how much longer do you have there?

Steve Mullen · May 22nd, 2007, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Butler

... with AIC, it captures in spurts (gets it all) and marks the clips at 59.94 which, in turn, plays back fast in the timeline

I've never had a problem capturing AIC. Simply start the capture and let the clips fill in a Bin. Obviously, when shooting do not wait until the last second before pulling the trigger. I've always done that with HDV because I know there MAY be a slight delay for a solid image.

The clips should be 59.94 because that's what they are. They are not yet 24p.

The clips must then be processed in Cinema Tools before being used in FCP. You cannot use native Capture for 24p editing.

Eric Goodspeed · May 22nd, 2007, 01:36 AM

Greetings-

Steve: Always appreciate your technical/non-technical offerings. I have been following the Graeme Nattress workaround posted by Heath McKnight at VAAST using HDV conversion to 75% Photo Jpeg.

http://www.sundancemediagroup.com/ar...24P_HVRV1U.htm

This process uses cinema tools' reverse telecine feature. However, your response jolted me back to the original reason I had set the progressive to the SCNA mode: it was a time saving technique in the original AIC capture/cinema tools workaround to avoid searching for the A frame. SCNA mode puts the A frame on the first frame. This would still work with the Photo JPEG file, yes? I haven't had luck though... had to find an A frame manually...

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.ph...=24p+final+cut

AIC capture would solve the problem. Thankx for that. I like HDV for space reasons here in Iraq and avoiding any intermediates.

Jeffery:
Appreciate the cool suggestion. I tried bringing pre/post roll to 1 second, but to no avail. Still a loss with HDV clips. Looks like AIC... or just changing to 24p from 24p SCNA, which I have done. No more lost time with HDV1080 clip capture. I put the 'on timecode break' pulldown back to create new clips with each start/stop detection.

Actually, I do want to have the 'on timecode break : abort capture" on 24p SCNA HDV1080. This puts the play head in a perfect position for the next clip capture. Then when I manually capture now, I'm able to get those 'lost' 6 seconds on the following clip. I was thrilled to discover this workaround. I just recaptured 6 tapes. Glad the public affairs officer had a spare M15U deck lying around...!

Alan:
Ramadi
1st marine division, 3rd battalion 7th regiment (3/7)
Arrived May 1st. If all goes, we'll be back for Xmas...

Thankx guys
Be Well,
EG

Steve Mullen · May 22nd, 2007, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Goodspeed

This would still work with the Photo JPEG file, yes? I haven't had luck though... hard to find an A frame manually...

Yes it's a real pain looking for an A-frame.

Next Monday, my HDV@Work Newsletter will have full description of 24p for FCP and Avid.

It will also cover how you can use native HDV rather than AIC.

If you can get email with PDF attachment, I'll send you a copy now.

Greg Boston · May 22nd, 2007, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Goodspeed

Ramadi
1st marine division, 3rd battalion 7th regiment (3/7)
Arrived May 1st. If all goes, we'll be back for Xmas...

Eric, my thoughts are with you sir. My son ended his active Marine duty in November. He was over in Iraq last year. Please be careful.

Best regards,

-gb-

Alan Ortiz · May 23rd, 2007, 12:11 AM

Eric,

Same here. Im headed off to OBC (Army) as soon as I finish school in December. I have no idea what my first duty station is or where I'll be going. Is it difficult to maintain your video equipment (heat, sand, elements, etc)? What are you editing on? And does anyone get edgy with you having a camera around? I'll be praying for you and your unit.

Peace

Alan

Eric Goodspeed · May 23rd, 2007, 06:45 AM

Greg:
Thankx for your understanding and support. Wow! I'd love to get my paws on a F350! Very nice, indeed.

Alan:
I'm a medical officer, thus afforded privilege commensurate to my responsibility. I've been documenting my battalion the moment I stepped on board. Everyone now knows doc loves to doc-ument. No one has questioned me. I just avoid documenting sensitive staff meetings, etc... Basic prudence.

I purchased my V1U from Scott Cantrell Texas TapeWorks (check out his sticky up above), along with a Camrade 'Desert Suit' to protect from dust/sand/sun. The one I purchased was built for the FX1... it fits the V1U but is not perfect... I hear there is a V1U edition being designed. It is a nice protective addition.

I'm also using a Sennheiser ME66 shotgun mic and a Sennheiser ew100G2 wireless mic system. To round it off I have the DS10 Miller tripod. Phew! heavy gear to lug around. Oh, but WELL worth it, my friend.

I have a MacBook Pro 17" 2.33, and a weibetech satadock firewire800 for external HD storage and FCP 5.1.4 to put the beautiful nuggets of reality together.

Quite an investment. But such is the fire-in-the-belly devotion to documenting the wonderful world around me.

Good luck in OBC!

be well,
EG

Piotr Wozniacki · May 23rd, 2007, 07:16 AM

Eric, be careful there, old chap!

Eric Goodspeed · May 23rd, 2007, 08:05 AM

Much thankx Piotr-

I've enjoyed your contributions over the year I've been learning from this excellent forum. I saw an impressive unit of Polish soldiers in Kuwait on my way over here! They were much more relaxed than my marines.

Now that I'm back to 24p, vice 24p SCNA, no problemo with lost time on HDV 1080i capture. Someday Apple may make a sexy on the fly 3:2 pulldown removal feature in FCP (an update for FCP 6?). Until then, I hard drive archive all my tapes to HDV 1080i.

Aquired some good footage today.

Be well,
EG

Steve Mullen · May 23rd, 2007, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Goodspeed

Someday Apple may make a sexy on the fly 3:2 pulldown removal feature in FCP (an update for FCP 6?)

One hopes so! The Canon VS20 uses the same concept as does the V1 for 24p. The reports are they are still waiting for an FCP 5/FCP 6 update.

The Apple Discussions is a great place for quick feedback on Apple products.

May 20th, 2007, 08:29 AM	#1
Eric Goodspeed New Boot Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ozarks Posts: 21	V1U 24p SCNA Woes with FCP 5.1.4 Capture Greetings All- After many HDV tapes generated using the 24p SCNA mode (for the theoretcial extra ease of 3:2 pulldown workaround utilizing cinema tools) I have finally confronted a painful realization: the first 6+ seconds of the automatically generated start/stop (flag) clip is absent on the captured file. These "lost" 6+ proximal seconds are recorded and played just not captured via CAPTURE NOW to the ultimate hard drive file. The realization came with lost introductions on interview clips. One can fussily and painstakingly shuttle the deck/camera to the clip break and capture these "lost" proximal seconds. Very ugly and time consuming... (ah, such is logging) when one is accustom to using CAPTURE NOW for full- tape hard drive archiving. Capturing a clip with defined TC in/out points does not work as well. The solution is to switch to 24p. "When recording in HDV format in [24A] mode, the time code does not progress correctly from scene to scene. When playing back those movies, a momentary pause will occur between scenes. In this case, you can copy the movies without the pause from your camcorder to a computer via an i.LINK cable and use them on the computer as normal movies." I now understand this "pause". Still don't grasp the copying without the pause using the i.LINK. I have not had success. Anybody else have this heartache, or have an insight/different solution? Currently deployed in Iraq be well, EG MacBook Pro 2.33 17" FCP 5.1.4 V1U

May 21st, 2007, 08:55 AM	#2
Eric Goodspeed New Boot Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ozarks Posts: 21	V1U 24p SCNA tape archiving on FCP5.1.4 Workaround Greetings to the Curious- Feedback/workaround to my original post: If one is concerned about avoiding archiving entire tapes shot in 24p SCNA to a hard drive with the dreaded missing proximal 6+ seconds of each clip generated, then: -go to USER PREFs -set 'on timecode break' pulldown to ABORT CAPTURE -Start play on deck then quickly hit NOW in the capture box. Each newly generated clip will abort on start/stop break. The new clip generated after a previous abort will contain the originally missing proximal seconds. happy harvesting EG

May 21st, 2007, 08:28 PM	#3
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	I assume you want to edit at 24p given you shot at 24p. That means you need to capture to AIC, not native HDV. Cinema Tools can only work with AIC. Capturing to AIC should eliminate you capture problems. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

May 21st, 2007, 08:44 PM	#4
Jeffrey Butler Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Virgina, USA Posts: 276	Set pre-roll to 1 sec. Eric, try a test on a capture after you change your "preroll/post roll" prefs to 1 sec. You will still experience the loss of a second or so at each clip, but it does help. I'm not sure about the Abort Capture option, but I currently have my "on timecode break" pref set to "Create New Clip." There's an Abort Capture option right above it, but it's a separate pref -- and if you set that "timecode break" pref to Abort Capture it will do just that - you don't want that - you want a new clip - which you'll get with the other setting. You may be getting it now b/c there are no timecode breaks. ? I'm a bit frustrated with the 24p ingestion as well, but find that the Pre/Post Roll getting set to 1 sec really helps. If AIC actually fixes it - I want to know about it. Because every time I capture 24p with AIC, it captures in spurts (gets it all) and marks the clips at 59.94 which, in turn, plays back fast in the timeline...even when I set the sequence prefs to 59.94...I haven't been able to capture 24p clean with AIC, and with HDV Native, cannot get the entire clip (I lose that second for preroll)(even though there's no preroll). __________________ Jeff Butler Butler Films

May 23rd, 2007, 06:45 AM	#11
Eric Goodspeed New Boot Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ozarks Posts: 21	Out in the Dust Greg: Thankx for your understanding and support. Wow! I'd love to get my paws on a F350! Very nice, indeed. Alan: I'm a medical officer, thus afforded privilege commensurate to my responsibility. I've been documenting my battalion the moment I stepped on board. Everyone now knows doc loves to doc-ument. No one has questioned me. I just avoid documenting sensitive staff meetings, etc... Basic prudence. I purchased my V1U from Scott Cantrell Texas TapeWorks (check out his sticky up above), along with a Camrade 'Desert Suit' to protect from dust/sand/sun. The one I purchased was built for the FX1... it fits the V1U but is not perfect... I hear there is a V1U edition being designed. It is a nice protective addition. I'm also using a Sennheiser ME66 shotgun mic and a Sennheiser ew100G2 wireless mic system. To round it off I have the DS10 Miller tripod. Phew! heavy gear to lug around. Oh, but WELL worth it, my friend. I have a MacBook Pro 17" 2.33, and a weibetech satadock firewire800 for external HD storage and FCP 5.1.4 to put the beautiful nuggets of reality together. Quite an investment. But such is the fire-in-the-belly devotion to documenting the wonderful world around me. Good luck in OBC! be well, EG

May 21st, 2007, 11:27 PM	#5
Alan Ortiz Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Washington, D.C. Posts: 392	Hi Eric Who are you deployed with (unit, etc) and how much longer do you have there?

May 22nd, 2007, 01:36 AM	#7
Eric Goodspeed New Boot Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ozarks Posts: 21	Greetings- Steve: Always appreciate your technical/non-technical offerings. I have been following the Graeme Nattress workaround posted by Heath McKnight at VAAST using HDV conversion to 75% Photo Jpeg. http://www.sundancemediagroup.com/ar...24P_HVRV1U.htm This process uses cinema tools' reverse telecine feature. However, your response jolted me back to the original reason I had set the progressive to the SCNA mode: it was a time saving technique in the original AIC capture/cinema tools workaround to avoid searching for the A frame. SCNA mode puts the A frame on the first frame. This would still work with the Photo JPEG file, yes? I haven't had luck though... had to find an A frame manually... http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.ph...=24p+final+cut AIC capture would solve the problem. Thankx for that. I like HDV for space reasons here in Iraq and avoiding any intermediates. Jeffery: Appreciate the cool suggestion. I tried bringing pre/post roll to 1 second, but to no avail. Still a loss with HDV clips. Looks like AIC... or just changing to 24p from 24p SCNA, which I have done. No more lost time with HDV1080 clip capture. I put the 'on timecode break' pulldown back to create new clips with each start/stop detection. Actually, I do want to have the 'on timecode break : abort capture" on 24p SCNA HDV1080. This puts the play head in a perfect position for the next clip capture. Then when I manually capture now, I'm able to get those 'lost' 6 seconds on the following clip. I was thrilled to discover this workaround. I just recaptured 6 tapes. Glad the public affairs officer had a spare M15U deck lying around...! Alan: Ramadi 1st marine division, 3rd battalion 7th regiment (3/7) Arrived May 1st. If all goes, we'll be back for Xmas... Thankx guys Be Well, EG

May 23rd, 2007, 12:11 AM	#10
Alan Ortiz Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Washington, D.C. Posts: 392	Eric, Same here. Im headed off to OBC (Army) as soon as I finish school in December. I have no idea what my first duty station is or where I'll be going. Is it difficult to maintain your video equipment (heat, sand, elements, etc)? What are you editing on? And does anyone get edgy with you having a camera around? I'll be praying for you and your unit. Peace Alan

May 23rd, 2007, 07:16 AM	#12
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Eric, be careful there, old chap! __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

May 23rd, 2007, 08:05 AM	#13
Eric Goodspeed New Boot Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ozarks Posts: 21	Much thankx Piotr- I've enjoyed your contributions over the year I've been learning from this excellent forum. I saw an impressive unit of Polish soldiers in Kuwait on my way over here! They were much more relaxed than my marines. Now that I'm back to 24p, vice 24p SCNA, no problemo with lost time on HDV 1080i capture. Someday Apple may make a sexy on the fly 3:2 pulldown removal feature in FCP (an update for FCP 6?). Until then, I hard drive archive all my tapes to HDV 1080i. Aquired some good footage today. Be well, EG