HELP! Close-up 24P Motion Problems

John McManimie · May 19th, 2007, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

OK John, if you're gonna put my name in a post along with Poynton's (His book sits next to my mastering system with the 2007 Broadcast Engineering guide) then I need to add "Buy my book."

Sorry, I have the two books I mentioned but I must admit that I haven't read your book... yet. :-)

Alex Raskin · May 19th, 2007, 05:04 PM

DSE, your website has the Second edition of your book.

Where can I get the Third edition you mentioned?

If it specifically covers Sony V1U, among other things, then I'm your customer :)

Bob Grant · May 19th, 2007, 05:05 PM

If you want some authorative information on the problems of shooting 24fps you would not go far wrong with the ASC:
http://www.theasc.com/
They currently have a Filmaking 101 package that includes lots of hard data from those who do it for a living and a 6 months subscription to their magazine which does contain a lot of useful tidbits.
Obviously shooting digital rather than film brings an additional set of challenges however starting with the rules that cinematographers use is a very good starting point. Or to look at it another way, if how you're shooting cause problems with film at 24fps then it's going to cause the same problems with 24p or 25p.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · May 19th, 2007, 05:12 PM

Alex, the third edition covers the V1, the V1 workflow for all major NLE's, the Canon cams, etc. Its' "going into" the third edition. In other words, it's still in finishing stages. We nearly ran dry at NAB (I'll boast a bit, for the third year in a row it was the best-selling book at NAB) and so decided we wouldn't reprint the second edition.

The book has now sold well over 100k copies, so we've decided that it merits a third edition.

John, my book (like both other HDV books available) is a joke by comparison to either Poynter's book or the 2007 edition of the Broadcast Engineer's handbook. The handbook is not only useful for every tidbit you need to be sure you're fitting standards, but it's also useful for anchoring umbrellas in a hurricane, dropping on attacking rats, or anything else that needs to be squished.

That is one monster book in 10pt type!

But it doesn't cover 24p production techniques. :-)

Greg Schlueter · May 20th, 2007, 02:43 PM

Since we have some apparent competition in the arena over V1U (HDV) manuals... one of which I WILL purchase-- let me set the stage for a bidding war of sorts... the "best" advice on this subject will get my money and recommendations! (:). Please provide a clear taxonomy and/or considerations of what might eliminate or substantially minimize "judder" from V1U.... Looking for clarity, specificity, and inclusiveness.

i.e.,

1) Sharpness setting... on the lower side? Under 3 or 4?
2) V1U's custom settings... any other relevant?
3) Assumption of proper White Balancing (etc.)...
4) When not to use 24p because of no control over light (etc.)...?
5) Technique issues... angles... movement... distance...

Marcus Marchesseault · May 20th, 2007, 04:55 PM

I think what you really want isn't just a camera setting. Part of your solution is to set your shutter fairly low so that there is sufficient motion blur to soften the edges of objects that pass quickly by the camera. The other half of your solution is to compose your scenes in a way to reduce objects/subjects from moving across the camera field too quickly. You will need to pan slowly and not jerk the camera around. Objects that pass near the camera will need to move slowly or so fast that they simply blur.

Mike Dunning · June 1st, 2007, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Greg, if you're going to shoot 24p, you'll find it helpful to learn some cinematography techniques vs shooting angles that you'd normally shoot with 60i. There are a lot of great books on the subject, or you might search out posts here from industry gurus like Chris Leong, Charles Papert, Nate Weaver, Greg Boston, or others that work heavily in 24p.

I believe there were some book titles mentioned in some other threads, but can't for the life of me remember what they were. If I recall correctly, there were some dealing specifically with 24fps/24p techniques. Would you, or anyone else, happen to recall any of these resources or know of any off the top of your head?

May 19th, 2007, 05:12 PM	#19
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Alex, the third edition covers the V1, the V1 workflow for all major NLE's, the Canon cams, etc. Its' "going into" the third edition. In other words, it's still in finishing stages. We nearly ran dry at NAB (I'll boast a bit, for the third year in a row it was the best-selling book at NAB) and so decided we wouldn't reprint the second edition. The book has now sold well over 100k copies, so we've decided that it merits a third edition. John, my book (like both other HDV books available) is a joke by comparison to either Poynter's book or the 2007 edition of the Broadcast Engineer's handbook. The handbook is not only useful for every tidbit you need to be sure you're fitting standards, but it's also useful for anchoring umbrellas in a hurricane, dropping on attacking rats, or anything else that needs to be squished. That is one monster book in 10pt type! But it doesn't cover 24p production techniques. :-) __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

May 20th, 2007, 02:43 PM	#20
Greg Schlueter Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Erie, Pennsylvania Posts: 43	MY MONEY GOES TO... Optimal 24P SETTINGs to avoid JUDDER Since we have some apparent competition in the arena over V1U (HDV) manuals... one of which I WILL purchase-- let me set the stage for a bidding war of sorts... the "best" advice on this subject will get my money and recommendations! (:). Please provide a clear taxonomy and/or considerations of what might eliminate or substantially minimize "judder" from V1U.... Looking for clarity, specificity, and inclusiveness. i.e., 1) Sharpness setting... on the lower side? Under 3 or 4? 2) V1U's custom settings... any other relevant? 3) Assumption of proper White Balancing (etc.)... 4) When not to use 24p because of no control over light (etc.)...? 5) Technique issues... angles... movement... distance...

May 19th, 2007, 05:04 PM	#17
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	DSE, your website has the Second edition of your book. Where can I get the Third edition you mentioned? If it specifically covers Sony V1U, among other things, then I'm your customer :)

May 19th, 2007, 05:05 PM	#18
Bob Grant Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	If you want some authorative information on the problems of shooting 24fps you would not go far wrong with the ASC: http://www.theasc.com/ They currently have a Filmaking 101 package that includes lots of hard data from those who do it for a living and a 6 months subscription to their magazine which does contain a lot of useful tidbits. Obviously shooting digital rather than film brings an additional set of challenges however starting with the rules that cinematographers use is a very good starting point. Or to look at it another way, if how you're shooting cause problems with film at 24fps then it's going to cause the same problems with 24p or 25p.

May 20th, 2007, 04:55 PM	#21
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	I think what you really want isn't just a camera setting. Part of your solution is to set your shutter fairly low so that there is sufficient motion blur to soften the edges of objects that pass quickly by the camera. The other half of your solution is to compose your scenes in a way to reduce objects/subjects from moving across the camera field too quickly. You will need to pan slowly and not jerk the camera around. Objects that pass near the camera will need to move slowly or so fast that they simply blur.