in sd mode? at DVinfo.net

Leslie Wand · January 24th, 2007, 11:44 PM

hi,

i'm looking to shoot in sd mode. at present shooting with 170, however, i need 16:9 for tv/client company (they're not interested in hdv at the moment).

i'm not interested in shooting hd since i send tapes to station and they want dvcam/dv.

anyone have any comments to make about v1 vs fx7 vs canon a1 in sd 16:9

many thanks,

leslie

Ray Bell · January 25th, 2007, 05:28 AM

I'm not sure as I don't have the cam yet as I'm still getting my support equipment/software updated.

But I have taken some of the footage thats being posted here and its very easy to bring it all down to AVI.

If you want to play with some of the footage download Cineform Aspect for Adobe Premiere and let it un compress the mt2 file to AVI file.

Then you can edit the footage and put it back out to a SD tape.
That way you shoot in HDV, keep your original tape and distribute as SD.

The output looks great as SD this way.

Brett Sherman · January 25th, 2007, 06:48 AM

My question, is why you would want to shoot in SD. Since the camera provides capabilities of down-sampling what you shoot to DV on playback, I'd shoot in HDV then make a DV dupe from the camera. You get the best of both worlds. If you ever need to go back to the HD version, you have it.

Lee Berger · January 25th, 2007, 08:47 AM

Brett,
Is there any re-compression when you downsample and transfer to DV?

Mikko Lopponen · January 25th, 2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Berger

Brett,
Is there any re-compression when you downsample and transfer to DV?

Yes. The already compressed mpeg2 is compressed to dv.

Brett Sherman · January 25th, 2007, 11:45 AM

Right. But, the resolution change between HDV and DV will effectively eliminate any compression artifacts that existed in the original HDV footage. So effectively it's only the DV pass of compression that makes a difference. And you would have had that shooting directly to DV anyways.

Another option is to downsample and go in to your edit system via the component cable. You'd need an analog board on your edit system, but you could effectively get uncompressed SD video that way.

Chris Barcellos · January 25th, 2007, 12:05 PM

I have FX1 and have used 3 different scenarios. The first is to actually edit in HDV, and then render out to DV. Works well, especially if you want an HDV final version for future use, as well a DV final version. I haven't tried extensive tweaking in this process, but I would guess that a little more work would make my DV output even better.

Second method is to shoot HDV, and down convert after from camera during capture. I've done that, and the downcoverted DV is just fine.

Finally, I've even shot a project in 16:9 DV, to use with VX2000 DV. I had to put the VX in 16:9 format too. The FX1 outdid the VX, which is to be expected since the VX 16:9 is a reduced resolution format. But they actually cut pretty well together for SD production.

I would not hesitate to use the FX7 or V1 in the same situations.

Brian Standing · January 25th, 2007, 03:55 PM

I could see one advantage of shooting in SD DV: you get uncompressed WAV audio, instead of MPEG-layer compressed.

Of course, if you're really doing something where audio quality is so critical, you'd probably be using a standalone audio recorder anyway.

Lee Berger · January 25th, 2007, 03:58 PM

I decided to put downconversion to a test. I assumed that the three modes of downconversion, squeeze, letterbox, and crop would be available over I-link and they are not. You get a 4:3 squeeze. It seems as if you have to go analog out to downconvert without getting the squeezed look. Am I missing something?

Eric Johannes · January 25th, 2007, 04:06 PM

No, I believe you are correct (unfortunately) Using this camera as a Standard Definition device is fraught with obstacles.

A warning about Analog Component. It will give you uncompressed...but without timecode!

John Miller · January 25th, 2007, 04:36 PM

Has anyone tried this?

Record to tape in HDV.
At the same time, record the SD DV output to disk (or another DV device).

In theory, the live DV output can be derived from the pre-MPEG2 compressed image. (Whether it is or not would depend on the particular manufacturer's implementation).

Hence, you'd get the HDV version on tape and an SD DV version on disk (or second device). This DV version would be better than that obtained by playing back the HDV and downconverting. In effect, it would be similar to that obtained from downconverting I-frame only HDV.

If I had an HDV camcorder, I'd try it...

So, is anyone willing to try it and report back?

Basically, record something in HDV to tape and, simultaneously, capture SD DV via FireWire.

Then, playback the HDV recording and capture a second SD DV file.

I expect there to be a difference....at least with some HDV camcorders...especially where there is significant motion.

Lee Berger · January 25th, 2007, 04:46 PM

That would probably work, except you would be stuck with a squeezed 4:3 SD version because you don't have crop or letterbox option on the convert to DV out.

John Miller · January 25th, 2007, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Berger

That would probably work, except you would be stuck with a squeezed 4:3 SD version because you don't have crop or letterbox option on the convert to DV out.

That's easily remedied with our Enosoft DV Processor (!) - it can convert widescreen DV (i.e., tagged as 16:9) to letterboxed 4:3 on the fly and, if needs be, from one DV device to another without capturing a file.

Leslie Wand · January 25th, 2007, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brett Sherman

My question, is why you would want to shoot in SD. Since the camera provides capabilities of down-sampling what you shoot to DV on playback, I'd shoot in HDV then make a DV dupe from the camera. You get the best of both worlds. If you ever need to go back to the HD version, you have it.

it's what the client wants. whether they have problems with editing hd, or are geared (vtr's, vision mixers, etc.,) for sd is neither here nor there - i've been asked to supply 16:9 sd.

and the customer is always right ;-)

leslie

John Miller · January 25th, 2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leslie Wand

it's what the client wants. whether they have problems with editing hd, or are geared (vtr's, vision mixers, etc.,) for sd is neither here nor there - i've been asked to supply 16:9 sd.

and the customer is always right ;-)

leslie

Do they want letterboxed 4:3 or true 16:9 that will display natively on a 16:9 screen?

January 24th, 2007, 11:44 PM	#1
Leslie Wand Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: upper hunter, australia Posts: 1,410	in sd mode? hi, i'm looking to shoot in sd mode. at present shooting with 170, however, i need 16:9 for tv/client company (they're not interested in hdv at the moment). i'm not interested in shooting hd since i send tapes to station and they want dvcam/dv. anyone have any comments to make about v1 vs fx7 vs canon a1 in sd 16:9 many thanks, leslie

January 25th, 2007, 12:05 PM	#7
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	I have FX1 and have used 3 different scenarios. The first is to actually edit in HDV, and then render out to DV. Works well, especially if you want an HDV final version for future use, as well a DV final version. I haven't tried extensive tweaking in this process, but I would guess that a little more work would make my DV output even better. Second method is to shoot HDV, and down convert after from camera during capture. I've done that, and the downcoverted DV is just fine. Finally, I've even shot a project in 16:9 DV, to use with VX2000 DV. I had to put the VX in 16:9 format too. The FX1 outdid the VX, which is to be expected since the VX 16:9 is a reduced resolution format. But they actually cut pretty well together for SD production. I would not hesitate to use the FX7 or V1 in the same situations. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

January 25th, 2007, 05:28 AM	#2
Ray Bell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,414	I'm not sure as I don't have the cam yet as I'm still getting my support equipment/software updated. But I have taken some of the footage thats being posted here and its very easy to bring it all down to AVI. If you want to play with some of the footage download Cineform Aspect for Adobe Premiere and let it un compress the mt2 file to AVI file. Then you can edit the footage and put it back out to a SD tape. That way you shoot in HDV, keep your original tape and distribute as SD. The output looks great as SD this way.

January 25th, 2007, 06:48 AM	#3
Brett Sherman Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mount Rainier, MD Posts: 428	My question, is why you would want to shoot in SD. Since the camera provides capabilities of down-sampling what you shoot to DV on playback, I'd shoot in HDV then make a DV dupe from the camera. You get the best of both worlds. If you ever need to go back to the HD version, you have it.

January 25th, 2007, 08:47 AM	#4
Lee Berger Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 326	Brett, Is there any re-compression when you downsample and transfer to DV?

January 25th, 2007, 11:45 AM	#6
Brett Sherman Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mount Rainier, MD Posts: 428	Right. But, the resolution change between HDV and DV will effectively eliminate any compression artifacts that existed in the original HDV footage. So effectively it's only the DV pass of compression that makes a difference. And you would have had that shooting directly to DV anyways. Another option is to downsample and go in to your edit system via the component cable. You'd need an analog board on your edit system, but you could effectively get uncompressed SD video that way.

January 25th, 2007, 03:55 PM	#8
Brian Standing Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 621	I could see one advantage of shooting in SD DV: you get uncompressed WAV audio, instead of MPEG-layer compressed. Of course, if you're really doing something where audio quality is so critical, you'd probably be using a standalone audio recorder anyway.

January 25th, 2007, 03:58 PM	#9
Lee Berger Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 326	I decided to put downconversion to a test. I assumed that the three modes of downconversion, squeeze, letterbox, and crop would be available over I-link and they are not. You get a 4:3 squeeze. It seems as if you have to go analog out to downconvert without getting the squeezed look. Am I missing something?

January 25th, 2007, 04:06 PM	#10
Eric Johannes New Boot Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: St. Paul, MN Posts: 11	No, I believe you are correct (unfortunately) Using this camera as a Standard Definition device is fraught with obstacles. A warning about Analog Component. It will give you uncompressed...but without timecode!

January 25th, 2007, 04:36 PM	#11
John Miller Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Hillsborough, NC, USA Posts: 968	Has anyone tried this? Record to tape in HDV. At the same time, record the SD DV output to disk (or another DV device). In theory, the live DV output can be derived from the pre-MPEG2 compressed image. (Whether it is or not would depend on the particular manufacturer's implementation). Hence, you'd get the HDV version on tape and an SD DV version on disk (or second device). This DV version would be better than that obtained by playing back the HDV and downconverting. In effect, it would be similar to that obtained from downconverting I-frame only HDV. If I had an HDV camcorder, I'd try it... So, is anyone willing to try it and report back? Basically, record something in HDV to tape and, simultaneously, capture SD DV via FireWire. Then, playback the HDV recording and capture a second SD DV file. I expect there to be a difference....at least with some HDV camcorders...especially where there is significant motion.

January 25th, 2007, 04:46 PM	#12
Lee Berger Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 326	That would probably work, except you would be stuck with a squeezed 4:3 SD version because you don't have crop or letterbox option on the convert to DV out.