25P issues

[Bob Grant]

Originally Posted by Ing Poh Hii

Please, please don't confuse reader again, this thread is for 25p, NOT 50i.

And if you did 25p without problem, I would appreciate if you can share some of the raw footage (with sharpness setting info etc).

Thanks Bob.

Just to confirm, yes the camera was shooting 50i.

I wasn't shooting 25p as I had assumed it was no longer an issue as Sony had taken 25p off the table. It seems that that has changed.

I don't want to post footage, I don't even want to offer an opinion until we address how, perhaps wrongly and if so someone please correct me, we can devise a methodology for testing for this problem. I'm trying to take 'me' out of the loop and get back to what I, as an engineer, have always considered to be the basics. A Test Case.

I'd imagine such a test case would go something like this:

1) Printout supplied pdf, jpg etc onto A4 paper.
2) Illuminate a x lumens
3) camera at y distance, zoom until image at full frame
4) Camera settings......
5) Record image
6) Capture image using...
7) Look at image in some defined way
8) Observe....problem

This way I believe others can try to reproduce the problem. If several people can reproduce the problem then we have a verifiable result. At the moment I feel there's just too many variables involved.
I'm prepared to follow this up shooting whatever mode anyone thinks would be helpfull but I'd really like some input on how to do this using some form of test procedure so I can post definative results that others can reproduce. My best thought at the moment would be to shoot the same scene using two different cameras, I have access to just about all the Sony HDV cameras, would such an effort be usefull? My feeling is that it wouldn't be as I'll be pointing those cameras at a scene only I would have access to.

Maybe this should be in a thread titled "How to test for..."?

[Tony Tremble]

Bob

I think the best way is to avoid all normal camera test!!! :)

One Sunday afternoon I shot several different scenes and built a very good idea of when 25P issues begin to dominate the image. The one dominating factor is to have a scene with lots of fine detail for example a field of grass. Under these circumstances the problems are easy to spot when switching between 50i and 25P. Also under different lighting conditions as 25P is subjected to very high levels of detail obliteration in dark areas of the image that 50i is not subjected to. We can only speculate why this is the case....well I have a good idea!!! :)

Up till now I have had all my offers of help thrown back in my face by Sony. I have offered to send tapes to show the problem post "fix" to anyone who wants to see them. So far no takers. I have been told the camera is fixed but turn down the sharpness.

I am now exchanging the V1E for a Canon Xh-A1 and moving on. I think I have done all I can under the circumstances to bring peoples attention to the problem.

If anyone can get Sony to listen then I wish you the very best of luck. I just don't think they want to hear..

Now we see that the V1U is not without its issues.

All the best.

TT

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

It's safe to say that the 25P references were at first removed, and then promptly restored, within a relatively short span of time. But, all that matters is the *current* text on the site... not how many times it has been changed.

Also it's worth repeating that there has been NO official "announcement" from Sony.

It appears there was a local low-level decision to re-position the V1E and then -- perhaps after the intervention of Tokyo -- a higher-level decision to reverse this decision. That was the substance of the middle of the night email from the U.K. that I posted a day back. And, why I felt the TITLE of the thread was questionable.

Of course, that leaves two issues:

1) how "bad" is the V1E when video is viewed in the real-world on an HD video monitor? Looking at JPEGs and .MT2 frame-by-frame is not the way an audience sees video. Check Adam Wilt's still images of HDV compression to see how bad a single frame can look. Read about CUE and ICE to see what frame grabs from MPEG-2 DVDs look like -- they are not pretty.

2) The email said Sony had not given-up on "improving" the quality. Which means the issue is still open on 25p. However, I think Thomas is correct -- we are seeing the inherent result of carrying progressive within interlace. Why it is so noticeable in 25p -- I have no idea.

[Tony Tremble]

1) Last time I looked I was firmly seated in the real world. The issues are clearly visible on any monitoring device be that a LMD monitor or consumer level HDTV. The reason why jpgs have been uploaded is because they adequately show most of the problems without need to upload 50-60MBs of data. Credit those that have reported the issue with a modicum of intelligence.

2) The answer to why there is a quality issue is far more prosaic.

Who thinks the oil paint effect on the V1U/E/P is acceptable?

TT

[John McCully]

I can’t see the oil paint effect. I believe my V1P is hugely acceptable.

Incredible machine.

I have no issue with the little 25p I’ve shot.