SONY V1U -vs- CANON XH-A1

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by John Poore

You always have to expose for peoples faces and in a typical bad light situation the camera will always take the average which simply is not good enough for news standards.

Obviously you've never shot with a V1 with its wider than usual latitude -- the virtue of CMOS. Modern cameras, both still and video, always get the exposure within a stop or two. Most of the time its spot on.

Once the computer has done its job, you use the Exposure Dial to trim the exposure to taste IF YOU NEED TO. You can both see the exposure and see the histogram as your dial in any correction.

Bottom line you can't do it as fast or more accurately than a computer.

And Tony, you should look at the Auto Modes now available on all the best ENG camcorders. These are available on the V1. Your interest in 25p shows you are not shooting news or sports. I remember when it was claimed AT couldn't be used by a pro race driver.

The V1 is perectly capable of doing better than you can do because it is both faster and more accurate -- if you know how to use it. And, when not to use auto!

Moreover, this debate was settled years ago in the SLR debates on AF. It's silly that video prosumers need to feel they are pros by not using ALL the tools availble to them. Obviously they care more about FEELING they have control than they do about actually bringing home perfect video.

[Dave F. Nelson]

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

Most high end productions actually use 24p because they still come from film. 30p is hardly ever used and can be very hard to convert to PAL markets. Stuff in the US is either shot 24p, 60i or 60p. 30p is not the way of the future, 60p is.

The A1 does shoot progressive style of video and the only people that complain about the resolution loss of the F mode are those who have never shot with it.

Very high quality television commercials in the US are shot at 30 fps on film. Film shot at 30 fps converts very easily to 60i because it eliminates the need for 3:2 pull-down, eliminates motion artefacts, and is much smoother that 24 fps.

For years the film industry has recommended the use of 30 fps. In fact, in 1988, the SMPTE published a report urging the cinema industry to convert to 30 fps due to the increase in quality of motion rendition, the reduction in flicker, and an increase in perceived definition.

But the motion picture industry has not adopted 30 fps because of the 25% increase in cost of film stock, developing and processing.

However, most experts agree that 30 fps (30p) will eventually be the frame rate of choice, because there is a movement to convert movie theaters to D-Cinema digital projectors. This movement is well under way. Since D-Cinema projectors work with all HD formats as well as 2K, with some supporting 4K, movie theaters won't care which format (frame rate, etc.) the studio chooses to use.

Since 30p looks better, and converts easily to 60i, "digital film" will convert directly to broadcast TV without all the problems discussed above. The same source can be used for Film and Television. The quality of films will increase overall because of this movement.

However this doesn't speak to the Pal market. You are correct. It is very difficult to convert 30 fps to Pal, but most US commercials are only broadcast in the US market.

For filmmakers interested in the Pal market, it is much better to shoot in 24p because the conversion to 25p or 50i is quite easy. So 24p is the most universal format for productions because it can be converted from 24 fps film (24p digital) to NTSC and to Pal.

So those like me who shoot in 24p will have to deal with increased motion artifacts and flicker in the new world of Digital Cinema. The choice of 24p, however, allows us to ship our productions all over the world. Of course, language will always be a barrier in non-english speaking countries, so there is more than 24 fps to consider.

And 1080p60 may be in our future but there are a lot of other things in our future too. However 1080p60 and higher resolution and frame rate cameras are still a little hard to find, right now, at any price. Red has promised one that will shoot up to 4K but it doesn't exist yet.

I hope to see one that I can afford soon.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Please note:
A few posts have required editing as they are inflammatory and bordering on personal attacks.
Please refer to the rules of the forum if you have any questions, guys, and try to have the same respect here as you'd offer in person.

[Francesco Dal Bosco]

Hi everybody.
I've made a brief test, auto mode 50i only, of the V1. The detail is very fine but I'm a little disappointed with the color palette of this cam. It seems a bit "cold" to me and the red looks oversaturated. To my eyes the image has a sort of unrealistic, vaguely cartoon like look.
I'm very impressed by the Steve Mullen writings and I would like to have some impressions from him about this particular issue. I'm going to take my final decision between the V1 and the Canon A1.
This is my first post so I hope to have done everything right.

[Tony Tremble]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

And Tony, you should look at the Auto Modes now available on all the best ENG camcorders. These are available on the V1. Your interest in 25p shows you are not shooting news or sports. I remember when it was claimed AT couldn't be used by a pro race driver.

The V1 is perectly capable of doing better than you can do because it is both faster and more accurate -- if you know how to use it. And, when not to use auto!

I think you misunderstand the role and skill of the camera operator in the workflow chain. The camera operator must provide creativity and consistency neither or which can be emulated by the most "intelligent" auto controls.

One simply cannot allow the scene being shot to determine the WB or exposure that has to be the remit of the camera op.

It is a testament to the V1's monitoring controls i.e. big LCD, Histogram, peaking and zebras that make the automatic functions unnecessary in my view at least. The peaking is so well implemented I have every confidence in my ability to focus. It is virtually impossible to mess up exposure with the histogram and zebras. It's these marvellous tools that set this camera above the others in the price range and combined with sound ergonomics and light compact design makes the camera a winner.

TT

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Brett Sherman

Most high-end TV productions are now shot on 30P (except for reality shows).

It's a lot more than just 'reality shows'. You can add to that most HD documentaries & theme shows (virtually everything on HDNet), nature shows (Discovery HD, National Geographic HD etc.), talk shows such as Leno, Leterman....I could go on.

Nope, interlaced HD is far from going away. I myself much prefer the look of reality that 60i brings to the screen. To my eyes there's nothing like looking at an HDTV and feeling as if you're looking through a window. Progressive just doesn't do that for me. Each to his own. :)

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Tony Tremble

One simply cannot allow the scene being shot to determine the WB or exposure that has to be the remit of the camera op.TT

The scene doesn't determine the settings. The camera's computers do. They do exactly what you do. Evaluate the scene and make settings. With the huge DOF and wide latitude -- neither the camera's auto system or you have much work to do.

Try it.

Turn on AF and AE and ATW. Point the camera anywhere you want. Pan it fast -- slow. Whip pan to close objects and far objects. Let someone walk in front of the camera while shooting. Does the focus change? Nope! Does the exposure change? Nope! Move the camera from indoors to outdoors. ATW will adjust as you move. Watch your peaking and histogram as you do so. You'll find every image to be perfect.

And, yes you can zoom and keep focus although zooming IN must be done slowly than zooming out. But, in fact zooming while shooting IMHO is tacky.

If you see the focus is not exactly what you want -- simply lightly apply YOUR correction via the Focus Ring.

If you see the exposure is not exactly what you want -- simply lightly apply YOUR correction via the Exposure Dial.

Think of it as Fly By Wire. Your goal is to monitor the camera while making corrections as needed.

Come on -- give it try. :)

PS -- you do need to set the correct modes using the menu.

[John Poore]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Obviously you've never shot with a V1 with its wider than usual latitude -- the virtue of CMOS. Modern cameras, both still and video, always get the exposure within a stop or two. Most of the time its spot on.

Once the computer has done its job, you use the Exposure Dial to trim the exposure to taste IF YOU NEED TO. You can both see the exposure and see the histogram as your dial in any correction.

Bottom line you can't do it as fast or more accurately than a computer.
deo.

I have given the FX7 a test drive already. I was overwhelmed by it's picture most of the time, it looked like XDCAM I thought. Wide open and moving it seemed to drop resolution off a bit for some reason. Which is why I have been so keen to get my hands on the V1. What you say about latitude increases my desire for it, I saw a small amount of different to be honest - I may be wrong though. I have read your reports to this effect and I'd be really impressed if you could give me a scientific comparison of just how much more latitude it has compared to the Z1 or even the Canon. You know Adam Wilt style test charts? Adams says of the Canon XHA1 "Usable dynamic range, measured with the Stouffer 41-step grayscale target, is on the order of 8.3 stops". How does the V1 measure up I wonder?


The lack of manual control on the V1 is a show stopper for me compared to my Z1. It's a pity because it's nice small camera with a great picture. From what I've seen already, I'd like to have one. I prefer the Sony colours to the Canon look. But the more professional controls on the Canon is what I really need.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by John Poore

The lack of manual control on the V1 is a show stopper for me compared to my Z1.

There are no missing manual controls on the V1. Same as the Z1, just arranged differently. Same as tha Canon.

[Tony Tremble]

Originally Posted by John Poore

The lack of manual control on the V1 is a show stopper for me compared to my Z1. It's a pity because it's nice small camera with a great picture. From what I've seen already, I'd like to have one. I prefer the Sony colours to the Canon look. But the more professional controls on the Canon is what I really need.

I have a feeling this conversation is going to be cyclic unless _you_ decide what factors are most important to you. Don't blame the camera for not meeting your explicit requirements as there are suitable alternative for you.

It is worth pointing out the the PD150 became the de facto compact camera used in UK broadcast from BBC regions, second cam on primetime documentaries and to war zones all round the world. People won Pulitzer prizes with it. The HVR-V1 is the HDV equivalent of the PD-150 but in every regard the HVR-V1 is superior to the PD150 especially in the ergonomics department.

If one can't shoot prize winning material with the HVR-V1 it is a reflection of the operator not the camera. There is nothing missing on the camera that would impact your creativity.

TT

[John Poore]

If I understand Steve and DSE correctly, I can, for example, set one Assign button to add 12dbz gain, another to add 16bdz and the other to add an alternative WB setting. So these features can be simply accessed without rumaging about in the menues??

[Tony Tremble]

Originally Posted by John Poore

If I understand Steve and DSE correctly, I can, for example, set one Assign button to add 12dbz gain, another to add 16bdz and the other to add an alternative WB setting. So these features can be simply accessed without rumaging about in the menues??

No.

Just re-read my posts where I explain the Exposure1 mode and how to select WB settings.

Why not download the user guide?

Cheers

TT

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by John Poore

So these features can be simply accessed without rumaging about in the menus?

Download a copy of the V1U owner's manual here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=82165

[John Cline]

Originally Posted by Tony Tremble

The HVR-V1 is the HDV equivalent of the PD-150 but in every regard the HVR-V1 is superior to the PD150 especially in the ergonomics department.

If only that were true! I have shot close to 50 hours of footage under a variety of conditions since I got my V1 several weeks ago. The V1 is fully three stops less sensitive than the PD150 and the V1 audio section is considerably lower quality than the PD150, which had a marginal audio section to begin with. Otherwise, the V1 is an amazing piece of work and produces a great picture (if you give it enough light.)

Overall, I am pleased with my V1, but not thrilled.

John

[Benjamin Eckstein]

Originally Posted by Tony Tremble

Oh, yes you can.

In Exposure 1 mode after the iris can open no further just keep turning the iris wheel and gain will be added in 3dB steps up to 18dBs. Again you don't have to take your eyes off the VF or LCD.

It is painless. The camera is not lacking at all and don't be put off that it is not bristling with buttons Sony have employed an elegant solution to that.

TT

I was disappointed to see the normal ENG-type switches for gain/wb are missing on the V1, but I see they are located differently as you describe Tony. My question is, though, can you have gain on even if you are not at the widest aperture? You seem to describe that gain and f-stop work hand in hand. Sometimes I want gain even if I do not need it and have room on the aperture to open up. For instance when I shoot multi-cam concerts, I typically set the gain to 3 or 6 for the whole show because I know I need it at some points. At other points I don't need it and have room on the aperture to open wider, but keeping all my cams the same with the gain maintains the texture throughout the whole show. So, can I have gain on, even if I am at 3.7, for instance?