V1 Progressive Sharpness?

Zsolt Gordos · January 15th, 2007, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Tremble

The 25P issue is not limited to my unit. Sony hasn't stopped delivering units to dealers for no reason. My dealer still has not received his units back from Sony as they are not fixed.TT

I can confirm this. I have spoken with the guy at Sony today to get an update on the situation with my camera that is with them for about 2 weeks now. He said they were waiting for folks in Japan to figure out what to do. Since I will need the cam very soon (at least to be able to work with 50i), he sent it back today without the fix. They will send a courier again for my cam once they will know what to do.

Surely they wont bother if the issue was not acknowledged by them.

Zsolt Gordos · January 15th, 2007, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Tony, it's as reasonable to assume you have one of a few bad V1Es as it is for you to assume they are all bad, but only you have the ability to see the "bug."
I think it is a serious error to now try to suggest that ALL V1's have some problem based upon your single sample.

Hmmm...I have to argue with this.

First, if this would be the case, would it not be super easy for Sony to say: "hey Mr. Tremble, here is a perfect replacement unit for you, we have double checked, it does not show any of the artifacts you have found in your bad apple unit" and the story was over.

Instead, they do a software update first.
Then they pay courier twice to collect and resend units in countries as far as Poland and Hungary.
They stop distribution in UK and OZ (maybe also in other places I am not aware of) until the problem being fixed.

If the problem units were not many, why would they bother instead of simply replacing these solitary bad units with normally working ones to get things smoothen and avoid suspicion of potential new customers in 25p markets?

Piotr Wozniacki · January 15th, 2007, 02:49 PM

I haven't posted on this forum for a while, as I thought that after Sony officially admitted the bug, and that there's still no working fix for it, all we can do is just wait. But posts from people who still deny the bug very existence make me come back with this short confirmation: yes, Steve, the bug is there. In fact, it's so evident I returned my camera - after getting it back from PrimeSupport after unsuccessful attempt at fixing -to my dealer for full refund.

Questioning the evidence from those affected does not help anybody. That not every single V1E buyer has reported the bug doen't mean a thing, either. Many don't post here, others don't care so much, still other simply sent it to Prime Support fro a fix without notifying their dealer. It's as simple as this.

My Dealer informed me that he will not have flawless units from the factory before the end of February. So, the problem is a serious one, and forums like this should help people get informed and not introduce confusion.

Michael Phillips · January 15th, 2007, 04:10 PM

In the post "Dear Gosh... where's the footage", Chris Medico posted some footage at 30p in a highly contrasted environment. This footage showed the issue well with 25p, it would have been impossible to shoot this without crawling edges of one sort or another. The problems he had with the shoot otherwise I think you would expect anyway.
In my previous post I mention panning, this was done extemely slowly with a tripod just to make sure I was not creating a problem horizontally or vertically.
If you had first hand experience of the 25p issue, you would be keen to see the back end of it as you cannot produce quality video in all circumstances with 25p.

Steve Mullen · January 15th, 2007, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

But posts from people who still deny the bug very existence make me come back with this short confirmation: yes, Steve, the bug is there.

Questioning the evidence from those affected does not help anybody.

Everyone should read more carefully. I have never questioned that some number of V1E's have some kind of "bug."

Read them again! What I questioned was Tony's newest claim that ALL V1s have a problem and that thousands of us simply haven't noticed it yet. I also objected to his using my explanation of how the V1 works as "support" for his "they are all broken" theory.

Lastly, I have been trying to explain why I and P "may" not look identical because they are not created the same. And, why if one asked which looked better -- the answer would be I. In other words, I do not expect that out of the box two different scanning systems would look identical. I also don't expect a high-detail camera to be 100% free of aliasing. Ain't ever been the case with any camera I've tested.

Conversly, I have no problem believing that the "bug" is far beyond anything I would call "not identical."

PS: of course there are not "pots" -- but there are dozens a firmware parameters that can be adjusted. In fact, I suspect that we are dealing with an issue that arises from the fact the 576PAL and 1080i use different filter settings than do 480NTSC and 1080i. If it's really the end of FEB, it could be a new optical anti-aliasing filter.

Tony Tremble · January 15th, 2007, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

PS: of course there are not "pots" -- but there are dozens a firmware parameters that can be adjusted. In fact, I suspect that we are dealing with an issue that arises from the fact the 576PAL and 1080i use different filter settings than do 480NTSC and 1080i. If it's really the end of FEB, it could be a new optical anti-aliasing filter.

And as for the quote above, is any of that based on information you have received from Sony or is it something you've plucked out of the air? It is pretty clear you haven't looked at the comparison pics I posted as the problems are far greater than an anti aliasing filter.

The information I have is that if needed they will completely re-write the firmware, because they can, as tweaking proved unsuccessful.

Whether you like it or not 25P is broken on all units that shipped in the first batch which includes the V1P and V1E. There is probably a very good reason why more owners are reporting issues as many will be in the hands of freelance camera operators shooting mainly in WS DVCAM for news. I very much doubt the cameras were ever bought with any intention of shooting HDV by these people. I've seen two already being used at press conferences in news footage.

TT

Steve Mullen · January 15th, 2007, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Tremble

It is pretty clear you haven't looked at the comparison pics I posted as the problems are far greater than an anti aliasing filter.

TT

Tony -- please relax. No one disputes you see a serious problem with your V1U. No disputes that Sony is working on the problem.

Sorry, but I did look at your pix post and it looked like a bad shot. But, as I said, I'm not into using compressed frame grabs to prove quality points.

BUT the topic of this thread is PROGRESSIVE SOFTNESS and not your problem! The Thread on 25P was closed. Now you've opened the topic again, here. So, anything to do do with 25P is OT.

Please let's get back to the topic before this thread is closed too.

Boyd Ostroff · January 17th, 2007, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Please let's get back to the topic before this thread is closed too.

Steve gave good advice here, but some people just aren't getting into the spirit of DVinfo's forums. Sadly, I've had to close this thread as well. Let's all take a breather and cool down, then maybe we can re-open the discussion after Chris has a chance to review things.

January 15th, 2007, 02:49 PM	#33
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	I haven't posted on this forum for a while, as I thought that after Sony officially admitted the bug, and that there's still no working fix for it, all we can do is just wait. But posts from people who still deny the bug very existence make me come back with this short confirmation: yes, Steve, the bug is there. In fact, it's so evident I returned my camera - after getting it back from PrimeSupport after unsuccessful attempt at fixing -to my dealer for full refund. Questioning the evidence from those affected does not help anybody. That not every single V1E buyer has reported the bug doen't mean a thing, either. Many don't post here, others don't care so much, still other simply sent it to Prime Support fro a fix without notifying their dealer. It's as simple as this. My Dealer informed me that he will not have flawless units from the factory before the end of February. So, the problem is a serious one, and forums like this should help people get informed and not introduce confusion.

January 15th, 2007, 04:10 PM	#34
Michael Phillips Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 40	In the post "Dear Gosh... where's the footage", Chris Medico posted some footage at 30p in a highly contrasted environment. This footage showed the issue well with 25p, it would have been impossible to shoot this without crawling edges of one sort or another. The problems he had with the shoot otherwise I think you would expect anyway. In my previous post I mention panning, this was done extemely slowly with a tripod just to make sure I was not creating a problem horizontally or vertically. If you had first hand experience of the 25p issue, you would be keen to see the back end of it as you cannot produce quality video in all circumstances with 25p.