25P Fix....ed.

[Sebastion Meddings]

Luckily my dealer tipped me off about the Sony just before purchasing I would have been gutted had I just got a camera only to have to send it back. There was also a big stink that kicked off on here a while back about the sony being problematic which made me think twice.

I can assure you Tony that if you have to move to the Canon that you will not be dissapointed! It really is a great camera. Although it is a little heavier, It has a nicely balanced feel in the hand and a really usefull wide angle of view as standard.

It sounds to me like the problem may be fairly inherant if they are only able to reduce it's effect rather than totally remove it. I hope you get it sorted soon, but at least you have some good options if not.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Tony Tremble

The oil paint effect is probably still there as the "fix" has reduced it but under the right condition it raises its ugly head. It seems they've just altered the threshold at which the filtering becomes active.

I still see the obliteration of low contrast detail (oil paint effect), aliasing of contrasty fine detail and over sharp edges which stair step and are buzzing with mosquito noise. Reducing the sharpening in 25P just turns the image to mush before the over sharp edges disappear.

How much of those artefacts you see will depend on how your viewing device handles 25Psf and if it is not a native 1080p set how it handles de-interlacing of 25Psf.

Thank heavens for small mercies at least they didn't screw up the 50i mode as it is still as glorious as it was prior to the so called fix.

TT

So the "problems" are:

1) "the oil paint effect is probably still there." Wow. You want a problem you can't see to be fixed because it's "probably" still there.

2) "I still see the obliteration of low contrast detail, aliasing of contrasty fine detail and over sharp edges which stair step and are buzzing with mosquito noise." So this is it? This is the big deal?

You find 25p is defective because it is has a bit more aliasing than 50i. This difference is absolutly logical. Each 50i frame begins -- from the sensors -- with twice the information: two 960x1080 frames. Naturally, 50i is going to look great! If 50i didn't look better there would be something seriously wrong.

You have made an assumption that P and I SHOULD look the same. But, they can't look the same. They are not created the same way.

I suggest you understand how the V1 functions. Once you do you'll reailize why your "equal quality" assumption is false. Once you realize it's false -- then you'll see why 50i must look great. Moreover, you'll realize the most Sony can do is tune the aliasing filters. It can never really make P look identical to I.

I suspect that 30p shows the same "problem" as there were comments about my posts of 60i and 30p that -- although 30p was obviously softer, there was more aliasing on the 30P edges which might cause some to see them as sharper. I also suspect we might see 24p having lower quality than 60i but harder to see because of the 2-3 judder.

The point is that a few 25p users have become highly senitized to looking for differences assuming there should be none. Despite the overwheming interest in 24p/25p on the boards, Sony knows world-wide it's actual $$$ market is for 50i and 60i. Therefore, it's obvious what's really important is I performance. And, as you say that is "glorious."

[Drew Long]

Steve

I believe Tony is saying that the problem is there but is less pronounced than before.
As for your other comments, I am confused. If interlaced is suppose to look better than progressive, then why would Sony even claim progressive scan as the main feature? Progressive scan is suppose to look better with higher resolution and less of the artifacting associated with interlaced. CF24/25/30 would suffice would it not? I've looked at the other progressive scan cameras and on my HVX, 1080P looks better than 1080i. Are you saying in the V1E's case, it shouldn't?

Could you please also explain how a progressive scan sensor comes up with 2 i frames which have better resolution than 1 native progressive frame? If the sensor is progressive, then the picture is actually interlaced to give 50i. Or are you referring to the HDV processing that Sony uses to use 1080i signal to carry the 24/25/30p information and thus the resulting picture is not as good as 50/60i?

[Bob Grant]

Who ever said progressive scan is supposed to look better than interlaced?
A lot of people say they prefer the look and have been buying cameras on that basis. Sony are simply catering to that market, talk about damned if they don't and damned when they do.

You can derive a true interlaced signal from a progressive sensor, you just clock it twice as fast. No magic required. Apart from digital film cameras and the JVC pretty well every camera that shoots progressive can also shoot interlaced.

A 1080i signal can and does carry 24p, 25p and 30p. That's how many things such as telecined film is broadcast. The only tricky bit is the display device knowing how to display it correctly.

[Steve Mullen]

The internal operations of the V1 has been well documented. I'm very sick with the flu so forgive me for saying that so far too much of what's been posted by the 25p folks is made up of a number assumptions and zero understanding of anything.

Yet, folks post of the V1's failures. Try reading past posts before posting. I've covered the V1 for months in HDV@work. I just don't have the energy to write out again. At least not tonight.

I see Sony's market is 90% or 95% I-scan -- so obviously nothing was done that would hurt I while offering P for those that keep asking for it. Sony has done so. If it doesn't meet someone's needs, there are several other P camcorders to choose from.

[Tony Tremble]

I was writing to Michael and suggesting to him that the oil paint effect is still there in his V1P.

Steve I respect you knowledge of the subject but if you saw the images I have sent to my dealer and Sony you would not be quite so scathing of my opinion. My dealer knows I am am right and so does Sony given what Simon Wyndham told me. It's not just me that is reporting the problems after the firmware upgrade. There are several other people that my dealer is aware of as people beginning to get their cams back from the so called fixing.

I absolutely do not accept that 25P should be lower in quality to 50i. That is just complete and utter bunkum. It has absolutely nothing to do with Sony's target market either. 25P still looks significantly worse that a 50i frame that has been de-interlaced. That CANNOT be right. How can a progressive camera screw up progressive recording so much?

My dealer has thanked me for bringing this to their attention as they haven't had their cameras back yet. Apparently Sony are re-checking them in the light of new information!

Steve, you are not obviously seeing with your V1u what I/we are seeing with the v1e.

This will be my last post on the subject. I tried to bring this to the group's attention for its benefit and have just succeeded in being spoken to like I'm an idiot.

I'll post when I have some proof the fix has been fixed!

TT

******UPDATE******
Sony Prime Support have just rung to confirm the "fix" does NOT fix the camera. They are working on a new "fix" and will telephone me when it is ready to arrange pick up of camera. No time scale!

They also confirmed that there should NOT be any difference in quality between 50i and 25P. Anybody thinking or trying to justify that is simply WRONG!
*******************

I hope that helps.

TT

[Kristin Stewart]

Is there a way to see which firmware version is installed on a V1 model ?

[Alex Leith]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

I see Sony's market is 90% or 95% I-scan -- so obviously nothing was done that would hurt I while offering P for those that keep asking for it. Sony has done so. If it doesn't meet someone's needs, there are several other P camcorders to choose from.

That may be true in North America, but Europe has been far ahead of the curve in terms of adopting and using technology that supports the "aesthetic" values of TV. 25p is used on many productions, we've had true widescreen broadcasts in SD for almost 10 years, etc, etc.

Sony are obviously not stupid, and because Europe is so totally Sony-centric, they would be insane to offer 25p as a nice-but-unusable feature, because as you so rightly say - there are several other P camcorders to choose from.

[Alex Leith]

Originally Posted by Tony Tremble

Sony Prime Support have just rung to confirm the "fix" does NOT fix the camera. They are working on a new "fix" and will telephone me when it is ready to arrange pick up of camera. No time scale!

They also confirmed that there should NOT be any difference in quality between 50i and 25P.

Well, at least they've acknowledged that the problem still exists (rather than pretending it's all okay now).

Thanks for keeping us updated.

[Ing Poh Hii]

Originally Posted by Tony Tremble

******UPDATE******
Sony Prime Support have just rung to confirm the "fix" does NOT fix the camera. They are working on a new "fix" and will telephone me when it is ready to arrange pick up of camera. No time scale!

They also confirmed that there should NOT be any difference in quality between 50i and 25P. Anybody thinking or trying to justify that is simply WRONG!
*******************

TT

This is just what I understand about P and I, if P & I can't be the same then P shouldn't be any worse then I especially for a camcorder which is natively progressive !

Thanks a lot Tony for bringing this to me (I guess for many people in PAL world would appreciate Tony's thread too). I hope you will get a good P (that we all understood) very soon and bring us some good news (although I am very happy with Canon A1, it is good to know the alternative from Sony does work, I never know I might need a second camcorder in 2007 ;] ).

[Tony Tremble]

Originally Posted by Alex Leith

Well, at least they've acknowledged that the problem still exists (rather than pretending it's all okay now).

Thanks for keeping us updated.

No worries,

My dealer just called and reinforced what prime support said. It is a firmware issue and is definitely fixable also Sony have suspended delivery of the V1Es until this problems is resolved. Sony categorically state 25P is supposed to be the same quality as 50i and should not suffer the issues at all that I have noted.

My dealer was quite candid and assured me that they have spoken Sony and Sony are working on a fix and has been escalated to the highest levels and has the highest priority.

No time scales though...

All the best to those similarly affected.

TT

[Drew Long]

Originally Posted by Bob Grant

Who ever said progressive scan is supposed to look better than interlaced?
A lot of people say they prefer the look and have been buying cameras on that basis. Sony are simply catering to that market, talk about damned if they don't and damned when they do.

You can derive a true interlaced signal from a progressive sensor, you just clock it twice as fast. No magic required. Apart from digital film cameras and the JVC pretty well every camera that shoots progressive can also shoot interlaced.

A 1080i signal can and does carry 24p, 25p and 30p. That's how many things such as telecined film is broadcast. The only tricky bit is the display device knowing how to display it correctly.

Bob,none of the cameras which shoot i and p I've seen have a look of what tony's and other people's 25P clips have shown. I seriously doubt Sony thinks they can sell a product that is called progressive scan and have it look like a Claude Monet piece for certain scenes. I accept the p and i look different, but not like what is showing on Tony's and Simon's cameras.
Steve has vast experience and as he said, has covered the V1 for a few months. However, if I'm reading what he is saying correctly, the V1's p-scan is secondary to interlaced for Sony and that the p-scan picture is not suppose to be as high resolution or as detaled as 60i? As per his own words, in many of his posts he has said the i and p are virtually the same resolutionwise. In fact I remember somewhere he said 24 or 30p looked better than 60i. Which is why I'm a little confused by his statements in this thread.
I think to be fair, Steve hasn't seen the problems the V1E of Tony's is exhibiting. And I think it's a little unfair to be dismissive of someone's earnest attempt to warn others of a problem which ,according to quite a few others (including my own sources), Sony has acknowledged and is attempting to fix.

[Mikko Lopponen]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

You have made an assumption that P and I SHOULD look the same. But, they can't look the same. They are not created the same way.

Yeah, it takes 60 progressive frames and creates 60 interlaced frames from them. They are created the same way. What we've seen in pictures this oil paint effect has been very noticiable. And here you are calling it a "problem" and imagination? What's that about.

I suggest you understand how the V1 functions.

Maybe you should too? Especially when Sony has confirmed the problem.

[Tony Tremble]

Thanks for the support guys.

But PLEASE let's cool the thread down and don't get it closed.

I am sure Steve's comments were not meant to be inflammatory as he is _definitely_ not seeing the same problems as were V1E/P users are.

I caused the problem at the beginning of the thread by not checking closely enough before pronouncing a fix and had to backtrack.

I sent Sony and pretty blunt email about the quality issues of the 25P FIX over the weekend. To their credit they got back to me first thing and said sorry and real fix is on its way and 25P will look as good as 50i.

I think we are all learning about HD monitoring and just how much native and non-native displays can hide or enhance problems.

TT

[Boyd Ostroff]

Originally Posted by Tony Tremble

But PLEASE let's cool the thread down and don't get it closed.

That's good advice, but a little late IMO. I'm closing the thread for the time being while everyone cools off. In the meantime Chris and the other moderators will have a chance to review things.

I have already deleted one post. For John Eldon: please review DVinfo policy here: http://www.dvinfo.net/network/policy.php . Bringing politics into this discussion is way out of line and will not be tolerated.