25P Fix....ed.

Philip Williams · January 5th, 2007, 01:18 PM

Tony, now I'm not saying you should do this, but can you simple return the camcorder for a refund? Perhaps it might be worth waiting a few weeks waiting for cameras to come off the production line that have all the kinks worked out. Just a thought. I know I don't like the idea of sending and re-sending a product to the manufacturer to get a problem fixed if the return option is on the table.

Regardless, hope you get everything squared away. The V1 looks like a really cool cam, its a shame that PAL users are having problems :(

Alex Leith · January 5th, 2007, 02:30 PM

Let us know how it goes Tony and Piotr.

I hope this gets sorted for us PAL users. I really was hoping to add a V1E to my arsenal.

Zsolt Gordos · January 5th, 2007, 03:56 PM

I just have sent my cam back by the courier two days ago. This thread kinda scares me again after some relief...

Could we just demand to receive a normal working V1U replace instead of this haunted V1E?
I for one don't give a fig whether its E or U. 24p instead of 25p, so what? No eye can see the difference (unless branded with oil paint). And there is an additional 30p as well...

Any thoughts?

Tony Tremble · January 5th, 2007, 04:35 PM

The situation is not good at all.

As far as a refund, yes my dealer promised me that if the firmware fix was no good then I could have a full refund. But then what would I purchase? I chose the V1 over the A1 because for me it is the better camera so if I get a refund I will end up with a second choice camera. All I want is for Sony to pull their finder out and provide the camera that their marketing suggested we were getting. In fact what my dealer thought he was selling as well. They are not pleased by all accounts either.

I would still like to hear an answer as to why progressive footage should be different to interlace footage given the camera is actually a progressive camera?

Sorry for not checking the camera out before jumping in to print. It won't happen again.

Let's hope some technician with a new year's day hangover failed to upgrade my unit before sending it back.

One can only hope...

Have a good weekend.

TT

Philip Williams · January 5th, 2007, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Tremble

<snip>As far as a refund, yes my dealer promised me that if the firmware fix was no good then I could have a full refund. But then what would I purchase?<snip>

The only benefit to the refund is that it absolutely ensures that you don't get stuck with a lemon of a camera. I was just thinking it might be advantageous to hold on to the money and wait a bit for properly fixed cameras to get to the dealers. It would just suck to have to keep resending the camera, especially if the techs don't see any problems and keep marking it "repaired". Might be less frustrating to earn some interest on that money for a month and then repurchase a properly functioning camera?

Again, regardless of the route you take, hopefully it'll work out for you. If you like your V1 as much as I like my XH A1, I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to have the cam sitting there in ill health :(

Michael Phillips · January 5th, 2007, 05:03 PM

My camera was supposed to have the fix but still exhibited the problems you have. When the footage was put through Vegas it did improve versus the output direct through HDMI. I was told it was my TV that was the problem which may have contributed but the clips were not as clear as the 50i, you could even see this in the LCD, not that it is a great evaluation tool but it did emphasise that there was a problem. The clips when viewed on my computer monitor showed the same issues after capture.

John Eldon · January 5th, 2007, 07:23 PM

Why don't ALL of us unfortunate to live in "PAL Land" just cancel our orders, or simply ask for a refund. That would make Sony sit up and pay attention, and hopefully start to take the situation seriously. I personally have cancelled my order and am now looking at an A1.

Tony Tremble · January 6th, 2007, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Eldon

Why don't ALL of us unfortunate to live in "PAL Land" just cancel our orders, or simply ask for a refund. That would make Sony sit up and pay attention, and hopefully start to take the situation seriously. I personally have cancelled my order and am now looking at an A1.

I think that is a good idea. I am running out of patience with Sony and I don't know whether I can ar$ed to wait for Sony to fix it. My other real concern is that there no fix at all and don't want to be left with a lemon.

Part of me wishes I chose the XH-A1.

TT

Tony Tremble · January 6th, 2007, 05:20 AM

My dealer had nothing good to say about the way Sony had dealt with the issue. I won't say any more because it wouldn't be fair on the dealer who was having a private conversation with me.

Sony, just give us the same quality in 25P as 50i and we'll shut up and be happy.

TT

Piotr Wozniacki · January 6th, 2007, 05:24 AM

What is important is whether or not our cameras will show the same flaws as described by Tony and others. I certainly hope they will not, but am already prepared to ask my dealer here for a refund. I'll probably wait untill the matter is absolutely cleared and buy another one. Still sticking with Sony, I've been their happy customers for some 30 years now...

Tony, could you please email me who your UK dealer is - I'd like to buy my next cam in the UK, as the local dealer here said they're not going to have a new batch before March, due to many units in stock. Thanks!

Tony Tremble · January 6th, 2007, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Tony, could you please email me who your UK dealer is - I'd like to buy my next cam in the UK, as the local dealer here said they're not going to have a new batch before March, due to many units in stock. Thanks!

Piotr

I didn't join a forum to send private emails. Sorry. All I can suggest is that you use the forum UK sponsor or one of the vendors on the sonybiz list to be sure of quality service.

Cheers

TT

Michael Phillips · January 6th, 2007, 08:01 PM

Today was a cloudy day so I took some comparison clips between 50i and 25p with the V1P set to auto lock.
My suspicions that shiny edges were causing the edge crawl were confirmed. You could not tell the difference between the 50i and 25p at all even when viewed on my not so good Panasonic Plasma. So this is good news for a quality comparison given a certain set of conditions, and maybe a camera tweek will solve the issue with shiny or high contrast edges.
I took some video of the Australian Alps (only 2000m ) and it was nothing short of spectacular quality wise. The ability of HDV to give real pespective has to be seen to be believed.
Michael

Tony Tremble · January 7th, 2007, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Phillips

Today was a cloudy day so I took some comparison clips between 50i and 25p with the V1P set to auto lock.
My suspicions that shiny edges were causing the edge crawl were confirmed. You could not tell the difference between the 50i and 25p at all even when viewed on my not so good Panasonic Plasma. So this is good news for a quality comparison given a certain set of conditions, and maybe a camera tweek will solve the issue with shiny or high contrast edges.
I took some video of the Australian Alps (only 2000m ) and it was nothing short of spectacular quality wise. The ability of HDV to give real pespective has to be seen to be believed.
Michael

Michael

The oil paint effect is probably still there as the "fix" has reduced it but under the right condition it raises its ugly head. It seems they've just altered the threshold at which the filtering becomes active.

I still see the obliteration of low contrast detail (oil paint effect), aliasing of contrasty fine detail and over sharp edges which stair step and are buzzing with mosquito noise. Reducing the sharpening in 25P just turns the image to mush before the over sharp edges disappear.

How much of those artefacts you see will depend on how your viewing device handles 25Psf and if it is not a native 1080p set how it handles de-interlacing of 25Psf.

Thank heavens for small mercies at least they didn't screw up the 50i mode as it is still as glorious as it was prior to the so called fix.

TT

Carlos E. Martinez · January 7th, 2007, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ing Poh Hii

Tony, perhaps my initial suspicion is right, V1 is an overpriced FX7 with few more menu option plus a 90% good Progressive output (at least for PAL we live with). But it's 50i is really superb. I don't do progressive output so I won't have so much concern about it but if I haven't bought A1, I will stick to FX7 bcs no worth to pay couple hundreds pounds just for few more menu option.

Very interesting comments, because I also asked questions on another thread on comparisons between the V1 and FX7. Are there any anywhere to be seen?

What other menu option does the V1 have that justify the price difference?

In my case I am in an NTSC country, but I plan on shooting HDV 24p if I can, which would be the only reason to justify the V1.

Does the V1 have black stretch as the Z1 one has? That seems to be very important to control the blacks in HDV.

Boyd Ostroff · January 7th, 2007, 08:07 AM

Carlos, see the comparison that Spot has done, as linked in the "sticky" at the top of this forum: http://www.sundancemediagroup.com/ar...comparison.htm

January 5th, 2007, 01:18 PM	#31
Philip Williams Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Snellville, Georgia Posts: 614	Tony, now I'm not saying you should do this, but can you simple return the camcorder for a refund? Perhaps it might be worth waiting a few weeks waiting for cameras to come off the production line that have all the kinks worked out. Just a thought. I know I don't like the idea of sending and re-sending a product to the manufacturer to get a problem fixed if the return option is on the table. Regardless, hope you get everything squared away. The V1 looks like a really cool cam, its a shame that PAL users are having problems :( __________________ www.philipwilliams.com

January 5th, 2007, 02:30 PM	#32
Alex Leith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northampton, England Posts: 500	Let us know how it goes Tony and Piotr. I hope this gets sorted for us PAL users. I really was hoping to add a V1E to my arsenal. __________________ Alex

January 5th, 2007, 03:56 PM	#33
Zsolt Gordos Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Budapest, Hungary Posts: 414	I just have sent my cam back by the courier two days ago. This thread kinda scares me again after some relief... Could we just demand to receive a normal working V1U replace instead of this haunted V1E? I for one don't give a fig whether its E or U. 24p instead of 25p, so what? No eye can see the difference (unless branded with oil paint). And there is an additional 30p as well... Any thoughts? __________________ Sony XDCAM EX1r, Canon 5DMkII, Røde NTG2, Røde NT1000, Røde Stereo Videomic, Sachtler DV6 SB on Gitzo 1325V, Steadicam Merlin, Omnitracker, Hackintosh 3.5Ghz Quad 8Gb RAM

January 5th, 2007, 04:35 PM	#34
Tony Tremble Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 451	The situation is not good at all. As far as a refund, yes my dealer promised me that if the firmware fix was no good then I could have a full refund. But then what would I purchase? I chose the V1 over the A1 because for me it is the better camera so if I get a refund I will end up with a second choice camera. All I want is for Sony to pull their finder out and provide the camera that their marketing suggested we were getting. In fact what my dealer thought he was selling as well. They are not pleased by all accounts either. I would still like to hear an answer as to why progressive footage should be different to interlace footage given the camera is actually a progressive camera? Sorry for not checking the camera out before jumping in to print. It won't happen again. Let's hope some technician with a new year's day hangover failed to upgrade my unit before sending it back. One can only hope... Have a good weekend. TT

January 5th, 2007, 05:03 PM	#36
Michael Phillips Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 40	My camera was supposed to have the fix but still exhibited the problems you have. When the footage was put through Vegas it did improve versus the output direct through HDMI. I was told it was my TV that was the problem which may have contributed but the clips were not as clear as the 50i, you could even see this in the LCD, not that it is a great evaluation tool but it did emphasise that there was a problem. The clips when viewed on my computer monitor showed the same issues after capture.

January 5th, 2007, 07:23 PM	#37
John Eldon Tourist Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: London United kingdom Posts: 2	Why don't ALL of us unfortunate to live in "PAL Land" just cancel our orders, or simply ask for a refund. That would make Sony sit up and pay attention, and hopefully start to take the situation seriously. I personally have cancelled my order and am now looking at an A1.

January 6th, 2007, 05:20 AM	#39
Tony Tremble Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 451	My dealer had nothing good to say about the way Sony had dealt with the issue. I won't say any more because it wouldn't be fair on the dealer who was having a private conversation with me. Sony, just give us the same quality in 25P as 50i and we'll shut up and be happy. TT

January 6th, 2007, 05:24 AM	#40
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	What is important is whether or not our cameras will show the same flaws as described by Tony and others. I certainly hope they will not, but am already prepared to ask my dealer here for a refund. I'll probably wait untill the matter is absolutely cleared and buy another one. Still sticking with Sony, I've been their happy customers for some 30 years now... Tony, could you please email me who your UK dealer is - I'd like to buy my next cam in the UK, as the local dealer here said they're not going to have a new batch before March, due to many units in stock. Thanks!

January 6th, 2007, 08:01 PM	#42
Michael Phillips Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 40	Today was a cloudy day so I took some comparison clips between 50i and 25p with the V1P set to auto lock. My suspicions that shiny edges were causing the edge crawl were confirmed. You could not tell the difference between the 50i and 25p at all even when viewed on my not so good Panasonic Plasma. So this is good news for a quality comparison given a certain set of conditions, and maybe a camera tweek will solve the issue with shiny or high contrast edges. I took some video of the Australian Alps (only 2000m ) and it was nothing short of spectacular quality wise. The ability of HDV to give real pespective has to be seen to be believed. Michael

January 7th, 2007, 08:07 AM	#45
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	Carlos, see the comparison that Spot has done, as linked in the "sticky" at the top of this forum: http://www.sundancemediagroup.com/ar...comparison.htm