HD HDMI output to LCD?

Keith Moreau · January 16th, 2007, 11:23 AM

Thanks for the quick reply, Douglas. Of note as well is that the DVI interface I have in my Panasonic Plasma monitor is listed as HDCP compliant, so theoretically the Sony V1U should handshake with that and not down-rez. In addition the footage shot and played back by the V1U should not be copy- protected and therefore should not be doing any HDCP handshaking or at least downrezing.

Do you think this is a bug or a feature? If a feature why would Sony put it in? Do you think it might be solved with a special hardware adapter or do you think it might be some signal/firmware handshaking where DVI doesn't understand what the Sony HDMI is asking?

The only other thing I can think of is that perhaps the HDMI output is 9 or 10 bit color and the DVI might be limited to 8 bit color and maybe the V1U doesn't like it.

Regards,

-Keith

Marcus Marchesseault · January 22nd, 2007, 12:54 AM

Somehow, I knew this would be the issue. I knew that $250 widescreen computer monitors as HD monitors would be asking too much. I knew that the HDCP stuff would be the source. I don't know how, but I knew. I know there is a post somewhere in the history of this site where I said it probably wouldn't work, but I'm too lazy to dig for it.

Of course, in that same post I said that I would be satisfied if I could just get decent SD video out of a computer monitor and I guess that makes me satisfied. I saw a 20" HDTV LCD with HDMI inputs at Costco yesterday for about $400, so I suppose a quasi-pseudo-HD LCD with HDMI isn't such a bad deal. I guess that I'm currently satisfied and will be happy in the not-so-distant future.

Brett Sherman · January 22nd, 2007, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus Marchesseault

I saw a 20" HDTV LCD with HDMI inputs at Costco yesterday for about $400, so I suppose a quasi-pseudo-HD LCD with HDMI isn't such a bad deal. I guess that I'm currently satisfied and will be happy in the not-so-distant future.

If that is the Sceptre Monitor, don't get it. I'm returning mine. I ordered it online for $300. However, I've found it to lack detail and create that dreaded "watercolor" effect. Bad scaling algorithms is my guess. I've tried both Component and HDMI and they both look crappy. Not at all like my Professional Sony 23" LCD which is sharp. I guess you get what you pay for. Still searching for a good field monitor (20" or less) that will impress clients.

Brett Sherman · January 23rd, 2007, 08:22 AM

After I returned my Sceptre monitor I went to Best Buy in search of a cheap field monitor that didn't make the image look like total crap. I took my camera in with a component cable and hooked it up to at least 15 different displays. What I found surprised me.

Not one monitor less than 27" looked even remotely like HD. All brands: Sony, Samsung, Sharp, etc. looked equally bad. They all exhibited aliasing with vertical and horizontal lines, introduced watercolor effects and added noise to the image. What I think is going on is that the scaling algorithms are extremely poor. My guess is that if you connected a computer to their VGA or DVI inputs at their native resolutions, it would be quite sharp. But when you send it an HD signal higher than the native resolution, it will ruin the quality by scaling it down.

If anyone finds a fairly affordable consumer HD LCD display at 20" or less that looks good with HDMI or component, I'd love to hear which one. From what I can tell, it doesn't exist.

Ron Chau · January 23rd, 2007, 08:50 AM

At Best Buy, were these LCD computer monitors, LCD HDTVs or both ?

Brett Sherman · January 23rd, 2007, 10:42 AM

Any 20" or less monitor I could find with a component or HDMI input (mostly component). A couple were in the computer department, but most in the TV department.

Seth Bloombaum · January 23rd, 2007, 12:15 PM

Been lurking this thread for a while - no V1, but may rent one soon.

When I went shopping for a new HDTV before Christmas, Best Buy did not have any true HDTV (that is, with a digital tuner, one of my criteria) under 24".

I ended up at Costco with a Vizio VX-20L LCD HDTV that is 1080i, HDMI in, Digital Tuner, etc. I think I paid $400, more or less. This could be what Marcus saw at Costco in Honolulu.

My hope is that it will accept HDMI from the V1 and not rescale (1080i !!), but I've not had a chance to test this yet.

Marcus Marchesseault · January 25th, 2007, 01:26 PM

I think that may be the one I saw. I'm eager to know if it works properly, even if I may not be able to afford it right now.

Dearl Golden · February 4th, 2007, 05:21 PM

Seth.....How is the Vizio described in your post working for you? I saw it today at Costco and was pretty impressed. I've also been lurking about for awhile, but finally pulled the trigger on a Canon XH-A1 that should be in my hands tomorrow. I have Dell 2405/2007 for editing monitors. Although I'm not quite ready yet, I am researching LCD HDTVs to use for previews and for viewing raw footage.

Lots to learn and there seems to be many willing to impart their knowledge/opinions. Thanks to all.

Seth Bloombaum · April 24th, 2007, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dearl Golden

Seth.....How is the Vizio described in your post working for you?...

Until this morning, I was only using it as a TV. Audio from an upsampling DVD player over HDMI was a little low, but that was my only complaint.

Took delivery on a V1 yesterday, hooked it up to the Vizio VX-20L LCD HDTV this morning for a quick test. TV reports the signal as 1080i in all camera modes, good. Apparently no HDCP issues, as far as I could tell with the tools I had there was no downsampling.

The TV's scan is darn close to what the camera shows in allscan mode - 2%? 5%? Close enough. I was limited to handheld on a 3' HDMI cable, so wasn't able to be very precise, but I was happily surprised.

The 10% black bar on Type 1 color bars is just right with default contrast and brightness on the TV.

Bars look amazingly clean. Every edge is sharp, well defined, no bleed, welcome to all-digital!

TV easily showed chroma noise at 9db gain.

That was about as far as I got in 10 minutes of futzing (need to get a longer HDMI cable). As far as a brief test goes, I thought this was very good.

Some notes on the TV - no obvious way to mount it to a C-stand or whatever. There is a pattern of 4 screw holes on the back, I assume this is for a VESA-standard wall mount, perhaps there are existing approaches to stand-mount or something custom could be done. 120v in, no external power supply, so, no direct method for battery power. Audio over HDMI was working from the camera.

More testing in the days to come...

Giroud Francois · April 24th, 2007, 03:19 PM

since the vizio VX20L is only 1366 x768 pixel, i hardly see how it could display 1080 signal without rescaling.
http://www.vizio.com/products/detail.aspx?pid=17

seems NEC is making a 19" near HDV resolution (1440x900) with hdmi
http://www.myshopping.com.au/SP--930...LCD_Television

or samsung
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4159421

Tamuz is making a full hd 15" screen but unfortunately it comes only with HD-SDI input.

and epson is cooking some small marvel here
http://www.epson.co.jp/e/newsroom/20...20061017_3.htm

Seth Bloombaum · April 24th, 2007, 04:33 PM

Giroud, thanks for the clarification. It appears I misunderstood the specification. A 1080i TV is not always 1080i... Oh well. Still a good TV and it will probably see occasional use with the V1.

However, this brings up another semi-on-topic question; how big is big enough for an HD monitor? If we see the picture wall-to-wall with reasonably accurate color rendition in enough detail to easily find sharp focus, is it good enough? Or, must we insist on display rez that matches what goes down on tape?

I'm sure the answer is "it depends". I'd guess that my Vizio 20" is more than enough to drive a jib arm with, and would be fine as a client monitor on a studio shoot most of the time. Reference for color correction and DVD mastering? Maybe not, or, maybe so, depending on compensation (money, that is) and expectations.

For me, I have no personal or client support to purchase a monitor that costs as much (or more) as the V1, which would be a broadcast-level HD reference monitor. It seems to me that the questions around "how good is good enough" have only gotten more difficult in these early days of prosumer HD, much more difficult than the prosumer DV market.

***edit***
Wow. Just looked at the Epson display G. linked to above. 310 ppi!!! However, it is 7.1" diagonal. So, what do you think will be better for focus - a 7.1" 1920x1080, or, a 20" downsample at 1366x768?

Marcus Marchesseault · April 24th, 2007, 06:18 PM

Don't forget! An important aspect of this topic is whether or not the monitor will actually try to display HD from HDMI. There are all sorts of smaller HD monitors out there, but this Vizio VX20L is the VERY FIRST report of a small consumer HD monitor actually displaying footage properly from the V1. Seth, you are the first!

I give you my sincere thanks! I've really tried to find a low-cost and portable solution and this is the first. Finally, we get the benefit of digital TV from start to finish.

Considering that most HD monitors are still in the same resolution as this Vizio, I'm not too worried about it not being a full 1080i. I want to know what my video will look like to most people that watch it and almost nobody has a true 1080 display. A friend of mine just got a very expensive 60" Pioneer plasma screen and it is still 720p. There are only a few 1080p consumer monitors out there and they cost something like $8000.

BTW, Seth, how is the Vizio just as a TV?

Seth Bloombaum · April 24th, 2007, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus Marchesseault

...There are all sorts of smaller HD monitors out there, but this Vizio VX20L is the VERY FIRST report of a small consumer HD monitor actually displaying footage properly from the V1. Seth, you are the first!

I give you my sincere thanks!...

Glad to help - sorry it took so long, the last shoot that I was thinking would be shot with rental V1 was actually shot with rental HD100.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus Marchesseault

...BTW, Seth, how is the Vizio just as a TV?

At 20" it is pretty good for my old tired eyes at viewing distances of perhaps up to 8'. 12' is too far for me. Overall, it is a nice TV, and the HD tuner works well for me with rabbit ears, but then we have line-of-sight to the main transmission towers for Portland. That's right, we don't have cable (and only occasionally want it).

I bought an upsampling Sony DVD player at the same time, which connects via HDMI and sends 1080i to the TV, which also looks great, but sound level is quite low for HDMI DVD. No problem with sound level for broadcast.

Overall, I like it and would buy it again. V1-HDMI is a bonus.

Hope to see you in the islands sometime - it's been too long now (used to live there, Kalani HS, UH, worked at KHET and KGMB).

Marcus Marchesseault · April 24th, 2007, 06:59 PM

Seth, you can hire me cheap if you want to leave your V1 at home when you visit! :) Airfare should be fairly affordable these days, but the total cost of coming here can really add up if you don't get good hotel rates. Still, it's worth the trip. We get the Hawaii Superferry in a few months so travel to other islands will have another option that should keep some costs down. I'm looking forward to camping trips to other islands with my pickup truck.

While I would have preferred a computer monitor solution, it's nice to know there is at least some sort of consumer-level HD solution for the V1. I don't need to drag something like a $2000 monitor out in the field. Keeping an eye on an expensive camera is enough babysitting for me. Thanks again for the report.

April 24th, 2007, 03:19 PM	#26
Giroud Francois Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: switzerland Posts: 2,133	since the vizio VX20L is only 1366 x768 pixel, i hardly see how it could display 1080 signal without rescaling. http://www.vizio.com/products/detail.aspx?pid=17 seems NEC is making a 19" near HDV resolution (1440x900) with hdmi http://www.myshopping.com.au/SP--930...LCD_Television or samsung http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4159421 Tamuz is making a full hd 15" screen but unfortunately it comes only with HD-SDI input. and epson is cooking some small marvel here http://www.epson.co.jp/e/newsroom/20...20061017_3.htm Last edited by Giroud Francois; April 24th, 2007 at 03:49 PM.

January 16th, 2007, 11:23 AM	#16
Keith Moreau Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brisbane, California Posts: 530	Thanks for the quick reply, Douglas. Of note as well is that the DVI interface I have in my Panasonic Plasma monitor is listed as HDCP compliant, so theoretically the Sony V1U should handshake with that and not down-rez. In addition the footage shot and played back by the V1U should not be copy- protected and therefore should not be doing any HDCP handshaking or at least downrezing. Do you think this is a bug or a feature? If a feature why would Sony put it in? Do you think it might be solved with a special hardware adapter or do you think it might be some signal/firmware handshaking where DVI doesn't understand what the Sony HDMI is asking? The only other thing I can think of is that perhaps the HDMI output is 9 or 10 bit color and the DVI might be limited to 8 bit color and maybe the V1U doesn't like it. Regards, -Keith

January 22nd, 2007, 12:54 AM	#17
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	Somehow, I knew this would be the issue. I knew that $250 widescreen computer monitors as HD monitors would be asking too much. I knew that the HDCP stuff would be the source. I don't know how, but I knew. I know there is a post somewhere in the history of this site where I said it probably wouldn't work, but I'm too lazy to dig for it. Of course, in that same post I said that I would be satisfied if I could just get decent SD video out of a computer monitor and I guess that makes me satisfied. I saw a 20" HDTV LCD with HDMI inputs at Costco yesterday for about $400, so I suppose a quasi-pseudo-HD LCD with HDMI isn't such a bad deal. I guess that I'm currently satisfied and will be happy in the not-so-distant future.

January 23rd, 2007, 08:22 AM	#19
Brett Sherman Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mount Rainier, MD Posts: 428	After I returned my Sceptre monitor I went to Best Buy in search of a cheap field monitor that didn't make the image look like total crap. I took my camera in with a component cable and hooked it up to at least 15 different displays. What I found surprised me. Not one monitor less than 27" looked even remotely like HD. All brands: Sony, Samsung, Sharp, etc. looked equally bad. They all exhibited aliasing with vertical and horizontal lines, introduced watercolor effects and added noise to the image. What I think is going on is that the scaling algorithms are extremely poor. My guess is that if you connected a computer to their VGA or DVI inputs at their native resolutions, it would be quite sharp. But when you send it an HD signal higher than the native resolution, it will ruin the quality by scaling it down. If anyone finds a fairly affordable consumer HD LCD display at 20" or less that looks good with HDMI or component, I'd love to hear which one. From what I can tell, it doesn't exist.

January 23rd, 2007, 08:50 AM	#20
Ron Chau Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: ny, ny Posts: 204	At Best Buy, were these LCD computer monitors, LCD HDTVs or both ?

January 23rd, 2007, 10:42 AM	#21
Brett Sherman Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mount Rainier, MD Posts: 428	Any 20" or less monitor I could find with a component or HDMI input (mostly component). A couple were in the computer department, but most in the TV department.

January 23rd, 2007, 12:15 PM	#22
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	Been lurking this thread for a while - no V1, but may rent one soon. When I went shopping for a new HDTV before Christmas, Best Buy did not have any true HDTV (that is, with a digital tuner, one of my criteria) under 24". I ended up at Costco with a Vizio VX-20L LCD HDTV that is 1080i, HDMI in, Digital Tuner, etc. I think I paid $400, more or less. This could be what Marcus saw at Costco in Honolulu. My hope is that it will accept HDMI from the V1 and not rescale (1080i !!), but I've not had a chance to test this yet.

January 25th, 2007, 01:26 PM	#23
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	I think that may be the one I saw. I'm eager to know if it works properly, even if I may not be able to afford it right now.

February 4th, 2007, 05:21 PM	#24
Dearl Golden Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Gallatin, TN Posts: 147	Seth.....How is the Vizio described in your post working for you? I saw it today at Costco and was pretty impressed. I've also been lurking about for awhile, but finally pulled the trigger on a Canon XH-A1 that should be in my hands tomorrow. I have Dell 2405/2007 for editing monitors. Although I'm not quite ready yet, I am researching LCD HDTVs to use for previews and for viewing raw footage. Lots to learn and there seems to be many willing to impart their knowledge/opinions. Thanks to all.

April 24th, 2007, 04:33 PM	#27
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	Giroud, thanks for the clarification. It appears I misunderstood the specification. A 1080i TV is not always 1080i... Oh well. Still a good TV and it will probably see occasional use with the V1. However, this brings up another semi-on-topic question; how big is big enough for an HD monitor? If we see the picture wall-to-wall with reasonably accurate color rendition in enough detail to easily find sharp focus, is it good enough? Or, must we insist on display rez that matches what goes down on tape? I'm sure the answer is "it depends". I'd guess that my Vizio 20" is more than enough to drive a jib arm with, and would be fine as a client monitor on a studio shoot most of the time. Reference for color correction and DVD mastering? Maybe not, or, maybe so, depending on compensation (money, that is) and expectations. For me, I have no personal or client support to purchase a monitor that costs as much (or more) as the V1, which would be a broadcast-level HD reference monitor. It seems to me that the questions around "how good is good enough" have only gotten more difficult in these early days of prosumer HD, much more difficult than the prosumer DV market. *edit* Wow. Just looked at the Epson display G. linked to above. 310 ppi!!! However, it is 7.1" diagonal. So, what do you think will be better for focus - a 7.1" 1920x1080, or, a 20" downsample at 1366x768?

April 24th, 2007, 06:18 PM	#28
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	Don't forget! An important aspect of this topic is whether or not the monitor will actually try to display HD from HDMI. There are all sorts of smaller HD monitors out there, but this Vizio VX20L is the VERY FIRST report of a small consumer HD monitor actually displaying footage properly from the V1. Seth, you are the first! I give you my sincere thanks! I've really tried to find a low-cost and portable solution and this is the first. Finally, we get the benefit of digital TV from start to finish. Considering that most HD monitors are still in the same resolution as this Vizio, I'm not too worried about it not being a full 1080i. I want to know what my video will look like to most people that watch it and almost nobody has a true 1080 display. A friend of mine just got a very expensive 60" Pioneer plasma screen and it is still 720p. There are only a few 1080p consumer monitors out there and they cost something like $8000. BTW, Seth, how is the Vizio just as a TV?

April 24th, 2007, 06:59 PM	#30
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	Seth, you can hire me cheap if you want to leave your V1 at home when you visit! :) Airfare should be fairly affordable these days, but the total cost of coming here can really add up if you don't get good hotel rates. Still, it's worth the trip. We get the Hawaii Superferry in a few months so travel to other islands will have another option that should keep some costs down. I'm looking forward to camping trips to other islands with my pickup truck. While I would have preferred a computer monitor solution, it's nice to know there is at least some sort of consumer-level HD solution for the V1. I don't need to drag something like a $2000 monitor out in the field. Keeping an eye on an expensive camera is enough babysitting for me. Thanks again for the report.