25p flaw of the V1 E model is official?

Boyd Ostroff · December 26th, 2006, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsolt Gordos

Showing up sometimes from 10m to ? when the subject is around 30m, not easy to decide what is in focus.

Remember that all these small chip camcorders have tremendous depth of field. Depending on how wide the zoom is and how small the aperture is, it's entirely possible that everything from 10m to infinity actually is in focus.

IMO, there's only one way to understand this sort of thing. Hook your camera up to a monitor or HDTV and just play around with everything, observing what happens. After awhile you will have some confidence in what to expect under different conditions. This approach has served me very well with the HVR-Z1....

Raymond Toussaint · December 26th, 2006, 03:13 PM

[QUOTE=Douglas Spotted Eagle]Bear in mind that the "fix" is written about by someone who originally wrote several features that were untrue...so that bears a little weight, IMO.
QUOTE]

Do not see it as conflicting with DV users to be informed, or to know what this reviewer find out after the Sony fix. But generally YES: Never trust one person for it, be multi-informed.

I have a webadress from a German high profile review that sees the original Sony V1 25p problem too. They describe it a little different; that is always if reviewers or other persons describe with words what they see with there eyes. Its German language.

Michael Phillips · December 26th, 2006, 07:59 PM

Have done some comparisons with the fix and the 25P does exhibit edge problems particularly on shiny edges, the interlaced video is perfectly clean.I did not change anything but the progressive mode and took the video immediately one after the other. I would not describe it as extreme but you can definitely see on some edges, a crawling effect.
Sorry, cannot provide the video as I only have dial up.
Michael.

Steve Mullen · December 26th, 2006, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

Remember that all these small chip camcorders have tremendous depth of field. Depending on how wide the zoom is and how small the aperture is, it's entirely possible that everything from 10m to infinity actually is in focus.

This is SO true that I suspect most users will simply not believe it. The plain fact is that until you zoom-in perhaps by 2/3 -- everything is focus. Which in turn means AF works very, very well on the V1. It typically has almost nothing to do!

Zsolt Gordos · December 27th, 2006, 03:21 AM

Just received:

"Dear customer,

Thank you for contacting the Sony PrimeSupport helpdesk. Your email will
be passed to the relevant department and you will receive a response in
due course.

Kind Regards

SONY PrimeSupport"

James Duffy · December 27th, 2006, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

For example, as much as I like the HV10/A1, they cannot be used for Xtreme Sports photography of any kind.

For what reason?

Tony Tremble · December 27th, 2006, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Phillips

Have done some comparisons with the fix and the 25P does exhibit edge problems particularly on shiny edges, the interlaced video is perfectly clean.I did not change anything but the progressive mode and took the video immediately one after the other. I would not describe it as extreme but you can definitely see on some edges, a crawling effect.
Sorry, cannot provide the video as I only have dial up.
Michael.

But you could upload a couple of grabs easily enough! :)

Michael, I have a feeling the V1U has these artefacts too. Can you look at this thread, by Steve Mullen, and see if the 24P and 30P (Image2 and Image3) images have a similar edgy artefact like you are seeing on 25P.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=82037

Look at the Holiday Blend (left of centre), particularly the shiny edge and the text on the packet. Image 1 is 60i and show no aliasing while I mage 2&3 show aliasing on edges. Is this the same as you see?

Hope you can help.

TT

Piotr Wozniacki · December 27th, 2006, 09:27 AM

Tony, inspirated by you post to Michael, I took another, closer look at those pics and am completely at lost now... Are you sure picture no 1 (upper left) is 60i? Because it seems to me that the upper right (supposed to be progressive) is ... well, sharper! Just take a look at the writing on the pack mentioned. Also, I can't see much edge aliasing in it - which particular edge do you mean?

Did you cameraa returned yet?

Tony Tremble · December 27th, 2006, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Tony, inspirated by you post to Michael, I took another, closer look at those pics and am completely at lost now... Are you sure picture no 1 (upper left) is 60i? Because it seems to me that the upper right (supposed to be progressive) is ... well, sharper! Just take a look at the writing on the pack mentioned. Also, I can't see much edge aliasing in it - which particular edge do you mean?

Did you cameraa returned yet?

Piotr

Yes Image 1 upper left is 60i and the other two pics are 24P & 30P. The 24P and 30P look sharper because the edges are not anti-aliased as in the 60i image. Look at the shiny diagonal right-hand edge of the Holiday Blend packet. Look at the text. The edges have a pixelated quality (stairstepping) about them compared to the smoother 60i image.

When I get my camera back I'll put the issue to bed.

TT

Piotr Wozniacki · December 27th, 2006, 10:35 AM

Yes, definitely - while the progressive pictures are clearly sharper, the edges do show some stairstepping. However, if this is how OUR progressive 25p is gonna look after the fix - I'll be satisfied. Let's keep fingers crossed!

Just one more doubt: we haven't seen the actual video, only the still grabs. If those stairsteps are crawling, that's another matter....But then, the V1U owners would have complained about it already!

Douglas Spotted Eagle · December 27th, 2006, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Duffy

For what reason?

Search the forums, you'll find 3-4 links to vid I've shot with the HC3 and the HV10 in the same situation. the HV10 engages the OIS whether you want it or not, and completely destroys the image. The A1 shares the same circuitry.
If you're shooting from sticks or general handheld use, this will not be any kind of an issue, but if you're shooting from a bouncing truck, horseback, motorcycle/ATV, skydiving, helicopter, etc...it's useless.
I'd search the link, but I'm on dialup.

Piotr Wozniacki · December 27th, 2006, 12:20 PM

The courier didn't arrive again to pick my V1E for fixing... I emailed PrimeSupport, but an automated only replay was generated. Tony, I wonder whether you left the lens hood on when packing for shipment?

Tony Tremble · December 27th, 2006, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

The courier didn't arrive again to pick my V1E for fixing... I emailed PrimeSupport, but an automated only replay was generated. Tony, I wonder whether you left the lens hood on when packing for shipment?

Yes, I left the lens hood on the camera. I removed battery, mic, tripod plate and tape.

Sorry you are getting the run around.

TT

Ing Poh Hii · December 27th, 2006, 12:29 PM

Hi DSE, if OIS is not good for extreme sport, then can't you switch it off before shooting ?

And if OIS is not good for extreme sport, it doesn't mean A1 is not good for extreme sport, am I right ? well, unless A1 doesn't allow you to switch OIS off but I have read it's manual, it does allow you to switch OIS off.. in this case, A1 should be good enough for your purpose of shooting extreme sport, right ?

And in this case, I don't think it is appropriate to blame OIS a flaw to A1.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · December 27th, 2006, 12:45 PM

Gee, why didn't I think of switching it off? ;-)

Re-read my post(s) and as I said...it engages whether you want it or not (Whether it's engaged/turned on or not).

The OIS isn't completely user-controlled. Canon tech support has said that they don't feel very many users are using the camcorders under these high-motion situations, and therefore don't see this as a problem.

Whether you think it's pointless to blame the OIS or not, it cannot be used in my particular needs, at all, due to the OIS that stays active even though it has been manually disengaged. The OIS circuit/system in the HV10 is the same one as found in the A1.
I've worked with both, I own an HV10 and borrowed an A1 for a week. It's a lot more than just reading the manual. Manuals don't convey how a product actually functions in a working environment. In fact, I rarely read a manual until I stumble across a function that I don't understand or doesn't behave the way I expect it to.
As mentioned, both the HV10 and the A1 are very fine camcorders. They just won't function in the way I need them to in my particular applications. If you don't shoot extreme sports, don't shoot from bouncing vehicles, don't shoot from ATVs, don't jump out of aircraft, and don't shoot from trotting horseback, then these cams will work wonderfully for you.
You'll not figure that out if you're only reading manuals vs actual use.

December 27th, 2006, 03:21 AM	#50
Zsolt Gordos Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Budapest, Hungary Posts: 414	SONY PrimeSupport Just received: "Dear customer, Thank you for contacting the Sony PrimeSupport helpdesk. Your email will be passed to the relevant department and you will receive a response in due course. Kind Regards SONY PrimeSupport"

December 27th, 2006, 12:45 PM	#60
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Gee, why didn't I think of switching it off? ;-) Re-read my post(s) and as I said...it engages whether you want it or not (Whether it's engaged/turned on or not). The OIS isn't completely user-controlled. Canon tech support has said that they don't feel very many users are using the camcorders under these high-motion situations, and therefore don't see this as a problem. Whether you think it's pointless to blame the OIS or not, it cannot be used in my particular needs, at all, due to the OIS that stays active even though it has been manually disengaged. The OIS circuit/system in the HV10 is the same one as found in the A1. I've worked with both, I own an HV10 and borrowed an A1 for a week. It's a lot more than just reading the manual. Manuals don't convey how a product actually functions in a working environment. In fact, I rarely read a manual until I stumble across a function that I don't understand or doesn't behave the way I expect it to. As mentioned, both the HV10 and the A1 are very fine camcorders. They just won't function in the way I need them to in my particular applications. If you don't shoot extreme sports, don't shoot from bouncing vehicles, don't shoot from ATVs, don't jump out of aircraft, and don't shoot from trotting horseback, then these cams will work wonderfully for you. You'll not figure that out if you're only reading manuals vs actual use. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

December 26th, 2006, 03:13 PM	#47
Raymond Toussaint Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 173	[QUOTE=Douglas Spotted Eagle]Bear in mind that the "fix" is written about by someone who originally wrote several features that were untrue...so that bears a little weight, IMO. QUOTE] Do not see it as conflicting with DV users to be informed, or to know what this reviewer find out after the Sony fix. But generally YES: Never trust one person for it, be multi-informed. I have a webadress from a German high profile review that sees the original Sony V1 25p problem too. They describe it a little different; that is always if reviewers or other persons describe with words what they see with there eyes. Its German language.

December 26th, 2006, 07:59 PM	#48
Michael Phillips Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 40	Have done some comparisons with the fix and the 25P does exhibit edge problems particularly on shiny edges, the interlaced video is perfectly clean.I did not change anything but the progressive mode and took the video immediately one after the other. I would not describe it as extreme but you can definitely see on some edges, a crawling effect. Sorry, cannot provide the video as I only have dial up. Michael.

December 27th, 2006, 09:27 AM	#53
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Tony, inspirated by you post to Michael, I took another, closer look at those pics and am completely at lost now... Are you sure picture no 1 (upper left) is 60i? Because it seems to me that the upper right (supposed to be progressive) is ... well, sharper! Just take a look at the writing on the pack mentioned. Also, I can't see much edge aliasing in it - which particular edge do you mean? Did you cameraa returned yet?

December 27th, 2006, 10:35 AM	#55
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Yes, definitely - while the progressive pictures are clearly sharper, the edges do show some stairstepping. However, if this is how OUR progressive 25p is gonna look after the fix - I'll be satisfied. Let's keep fingers crossed! Just one more doubt: we haven't seen the actual video, only the still grabs. If those stairsteps are crawling, that's another matter....But then, the V1U owners would have complained about it already!

December 27th, 2006, 12:20 PM	#57
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	The courier didn't arrive again to pick my V1E for fixing... I emailed PrimeSupport, but an automated only replay was generated. Tony, I wonder whether you left the lens hood on when packing for shipment?

December 27th, 2006, 12:29 PM	#59
Ing Poh Hii Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Kuching, Malaysia Posts: 104	Hi DSE, if OIS is not good for extreme sport, then can't you switch it off before shooting ? And if OIS is not good for extreme sport, it doesn't mean A1 is not good for extreme sport, am I right ? well, unless A1 doesn't allow you to switch OIS off but I have read it's manual, it does allow you to switch OIS off.. in this case, A1 should be good enough for your purpose of shooting extreme sport, right ? And in this case, I don't think it is appropriate to blame OIS a flaw to A1.